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Hey gang.This'll probably get me branded as an idiot by some. But I'm spinning Paul Simon's "Graceland" LP now on my non-audiophile approved Technics SP-25 as I write this & I'm thinking about the folks who maintain that this drive design or that drive design is inherently superior no matter what because of *insert your own reason here*.
I have three turntables & I use them all. And they're all three different designs. I have a Lenco idler, a Thorens belt-drive & the Technics. Do they sound different? Sure... But not that much different.
The Technics sounds a little more "solid" & tight. The Thorens is a bit more "airy" & the Lenco is somewhere in the middle, with a tiny bit of motor rumble which doesn't really detract from the music. I have a feeling the very slight differences in the Technics are more due to the plinth design and cartridge than anything else.
So - what is the function of a turntable? Not the arm or cartridge, but the turntable itself? I would say it is to spin the record at a constant speed & keep the record free from undue vibration or noise generated by the room or the motor. If a turntable does these things, then I would say it's achieved it's goal.
Is that to say all turntables are created equal? Absolutely not. But I've heard Linn LP-12s played through $12,000 amplifiers & a $6000 preamp. I've also heard a well-setup Dual idler drive with a Shure V15-III played through a big ol' Pioneer integrated amp from the 70s. Sure there was a difference. Again, I didn't think it wasn't huge. Everything was there with the Dual that was there on the Linn, just a little "less so". And I suspect those differences may have had more to do with the arm, cartridges amp & speakers than the thing spinning the record.
Trying to achieve an audio nirvana is fine if that's what you're into. But the differences that exist between any two well-designed and built turntables I've heard were never major enough to detract from my enjoyment of the music.
So whether you have a good $300 table or a $30,000 table. There is enjoyment to be had if you just... listen.
Follow Ups:
Don't you want your turntable to be vastly superior in sophistication and quality to most all of your records?
Good post Bobbo! But i'm sorry, i pretend i can hear differences not only between belt/idler/DD but also between different TT of the same principle. Mainly in the PRAT dept. Compare a Thorens with a Pioneer Pl-12D. The Thorens is nice and quiet but a bit lazy when it comes to timing, the Pioneer has less depth to the soundstage but has better PRAT. Idler wheel drive has a very distinctive sound, once you've heard it you'll recognize it. I just dragged home a Dual 3-in-1 with a 1214 TT, mainly for the Shure M75 type D cartridge plus stylus. Although the amp was almost dead in the left channel i immediately heard the idler sound. Same thing for a Garrard SP25mk4 a while ago.
So IMHO the TT itself adds a certain 'flavour' to the sound. Or am i watching too much Jamie (TV cook)?
"The torture never stops"
Hey Freek!How goes it?
I never said there were no differences in my original post. In fact, I said:
"My Technics sounds a little more "solid" & tight. The Thorens is a bit more "airy" & the Lenco is somewhere in the middle, with a tiny bit of motor rumble which doesn't really detract from the music. I have a feeling the very slight differences in the Technics (actually between the Technics & the Thorens) are more due to the plinth design and cartridge than anything else."
The main bullet point of my post is that in my observations, setup, cartridge, proper arm geometry, what it's sitting on, and pretty much everything else makes a much bigger difference in the sound quality than whether the turntable is a direct drive, belt drive, or idler drive.
There are those who claim to hear earth-shattering gigantic differences of epic insane proportions between turntables or even CD players. Some may have ears that are hyper-sensitive to certain things. Some are probably hearing the effects of a different setup rather than the effect of the turntable's drive system. (Because there really are a limitless number of ways you can setup a turntable.) And some are probably just regurgitating the misinformation fed to them by dealers to hawk their product.
Actually, I think I've heard as much or more difference by just tweaking the VTA or changing the mat than I've heard between any two reasonably good turntables of various drive systems that are properly setup.
.
Greetings from Rob in the UK.
"So - what is the function of a turntable? Not the arm or cartridge, but the turntable itself? I would say it is to spin the record at a constant speed & keep the record free from undue vibration or noise generated by the room or the motor. If a turntable does these things, then I would say it's achieved it's goal." ....Snobbery? Nonsense.
Actually, you missed the most significant role of the turntable. That is to provide a stable and tuneful environment to fix the tonearm/cartridge system to. You can't separate these components from each other. They need to work as a system and together they provide the "voice" of the final product.If the plinth is made of materials that are not music-friendly (some would say that certain acrylics, lead and other metals, and Corian would fit in that category) or if it is unstable, not level, etc. it doesn't matter if you are using a $10,000 tonearm/cartridge combo. It's still going to sound like crap. Very expensive crap!
Since you have these three turntables, go ahead and rotate a single tonearm/cartridge combo to all three. I guarantee that with at least one of the turntables, you are going to say to yourself, "Gee this cartridge sounds like crap."
The cartridge is always the first piece to get blamed, but it's usually just a really bad resulting resonance between the various pieces that make up the turntable system.An analogy would be like putting Michelin racing tires on a pickup truck. They may be the best handling tire on the market, but they would not automatically make that pickup truck handle like a sports car.
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
Hey Ray.You said:
If the plinth is made of materials that are not music-friendly (some would say that certain acrylics, lead and other metals, and Corian would fit in that category) or if it is unstable, not level, etc. it doesn't matter if you are using a $10,000 tonearm/cartridge combo. It's still going to sound like crap. Very expensive crap!
& I said:
"So - what is the function of a turntable? Not the arm or cartridge, but the turntable itself? I would say it is to spin the record at a constant speed & keep the record free from undue vibration or noise generated by the room or the motor. If a turntable does these things, then I would say it's achieved it's goal."
So basically, we're on the same page.
And you also said:
"Since you have these three turntables, go ahead and rotate a single tonearm/cartridge combo to all three. I guarantee that with at least one of the turntables, you are going to say to yourself, "Gee this cartridge sounds like crap."
The cartridge is always the first piece to get blamed, but it's usually just a really bad resulting resonance between the various pieces that make up the turntable system."Once again, I'm in agreement. My basic point was that the setup, system "harmony", and build quality & design of the product is of much more importance than whether it's a belt, DD, or idler. And spending a fortune on a turntable is fine if that's your bag. But truly fine performance is achievable on a good non-megabuck turntable through proper matching of tonearm/cartridge/turntable and by proper geometry and setup.
You are right on target, of course. I am using acrylic and lead in my DIY, but as you once told me, a little goes a long way. I used a little in places, and those places where I used a lot were very carefully considered. Still, you can find megabuck turntables that are basically solid acrylic for a plinth with lead tossed around indiscriminately simply because because acrylic looks glitzy, and lead sounds good on a brochure. Well, looks are great, but you don't listen to looks or brochures. There needs to be a balance. So, do you buy any four hundred dollar turntable, and assume it is nearly as good as the best? If you are an idiot, you do. There are good inexpensive solutions, and there are fantastic expensive ones that are actually designed with performance in mind. What there isn't is a free lunch. You will spend either time or money, or both, to get great results, or you'll run into a major stroke of luck. You won't get top results from a commercial product for a cheap price because like I said before, there is no such thing as a free lunch.
"You won't get top results from a commercial product for a cheap price" ...A good place to learn has been this NAD. Each upgrade adds something and you get hands on experience with the concepts while improving your lot as you go. Tweekability, in this case, is a benefit.
Now, in the end, I could probably get all the components into a plinth that is built 'like' what I now have but diverges on what I've learned. Use a DC motor, mass mass mass, two arm accomodating, etc etc. This might be called fun.
Since I know that there is more to be had a 'set and forget' table would merely, well I WANT to improve it.
I don't want to spend megabucks and I think that any of us that think our entry level tables are any more than that are deluded....that doesn't mean I am not an idiot. I don't think I get off that easily.
"...Tweekability, in this case, is a benefit."Indeed!
The original VPI 19 (Audio Linear TD-4001) and the AR XA were great test beds.
I am on my third go around on a DIY and the design will represent the sum total of everything I have learned from my previous efforts and tables that I have tweaked.There is no free lunch, unless you are a copycat :-)
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
Tom
.
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
Tom
then nothing else should matter. Unfortunately for me, I have to spend around 50K for my system for me to be content. Fortunately I have that 50k to spend. The wierd thing about it is that I can never ge my self to spend more than $100.00 on a vinyl, in fact most of my records are between $.50 to $10.00. But guess what, they sound beautiful, because my 50K system extract all that low level information from those grooves. In other words, I'm a happy camper just like you.
OK, yes - I did look at the picture and I want your speakers. Unfortunitly I'm not good at spotting the small stuff. What's the rest?
Gregg
nt
Realizing how much music I was missing from my favorite recordings is what got me into this racket to begin with. I think, you have taken the best approach.Unfortunitly I have tried to balance detail retrieval with emotional connectivity (for lack of a better word at the moment). I don't think that can be done on the cheap.
I think that there is a basic difference between what a microphone picks up (chair squeaks, fingers thunderously hitting the fretboard), than what we think of as music based on real acoustic experiences. Thinking what we hear in a recording is what was heard by the participants is kind of like believing our eyes are windows, or something along those lines, it doesn't take in to account how things are received and delivered.
I've tried to bridge the gap by mixing vintage and playing with SET and single drivers. I have listed some frustrations further down the board.
In any case, I think system like yours are probably the best way to bridge the divide, congratulations.
Gregg
*But I've heard Linn LP-12s played through $12,000 amplifiers & a $6000 preamp. I've also heard a well-setup Dual idler drive with a Shure V15-III played through a big ol' Pioneer integrated amp from the 70s. Sure there was a difference. Again, I didn't think it wasn't huge.*i've heard an ill-set up an all Linned LP12 ( Ekos II/Akiva/Lingo II, the whole works ) complete with 12k amp and 10k pre., who shall remain anonymous, and it was just horrendous. It was so bad I thought that the table's bounce was off. ( it wasn't ) I don't think this particular setup could have even competed with a run-of-a-mill Pioneer.
I had a stack of records I wanted to listen to this rig, but after few cuts, it was obvious, no point listening to it. I couldn't get the same level of involvement or satisfaction out of this system. I was simply a boring affair.
My Linn is much lower-specked comparatively, yet it provides much better sonic returns.
I've enjoyed even a garage sale found turntable in the past. There's an inherent goodness in all analogue playback.
But above system, I won't have it around even if someone gifted me with it. It simply was missing the very reason I want to listen to a record.
That was the main point of my post. I think setup & proper tonearm geometry are far bigger factors to good LP playback than whether it's an idler, direct-drive, or belt making the record go round.
Recently, I heard friend's all maxed out Naimed LP12 comlete with a Lyra Olympus into a 50K worth of amp and 25K preamp.It was one of the best sounding analogue playback I have heard ( Linn or no Linn )
It sure was a humble experience. His system did everything what my little rig does but waaaaaaay better. lol
But you know, I am still enjoying mine. This is like a Reader's Digest version. Whatever it doesn't do, my brain makes it up! :)
If you spend that much money on a hifi, you'd expect a lot more. Alas, it usually doesn't work that way.
Except this one delivered everything you'd expect from such a costly system.
P.S. I am not certain if a *proper* tonearm and catridge geometry or speakers could have saved that horrible Linn rig, to be honest.
The difference can be absolute night and day between turntables. It's a garbage in, garbage out thing. If the turntable doesn't do its job right, it doesn't much matter what follows it in the chain. Some people know that, so they don't mind making a significant investment in a turntable. It's not snobbery at all. It's logic.
"If the turntable doesn't do its job right, it doesn't much matter what follows it in the chain."And you are right. My point was, IMO there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Sure there's a big difference between turntables. But there is also a lot of snake-oil salesmen in the audio industry who have convinced some folks that unless you have this kind or that kind of turntable, you have a POS. In my experience, there are lousy and great turntables of all drive types and at difference price points. Overall build quality and good design are vastly more important than whether it's a belt, an idler, or a direct drive motor driving the thing. The whole "Direct-drives are all noisy, poorly designed beasts" argument is a myth. The "belt-drives all have poor speed control" argument is a myth. Idlers can introduce more vibration than the other two, but some of those are so quiet the difference is insignificant, at least to my ears.
And just because you throw a buttload of money at something doesn't necesarily make it a vastly better product. There is a snob factor that's pushed in the audio industry (and the auto industry) and a tendency by some to think "Well, if I spend 3 times as much money on this car, turntable, washing machine, or whatever, it's going to be 3 times better than that other thing." That isn't to say that a $12,000 turntable isn't somewhat better than a $1200 turntable. But it's probably not 12 times better either.
Sometimes, you'll get a result that is better to the point that the comparison is like that of apples to oranges. What then?
Good points made!
you can use it to spin records as well.
ooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm
Is that what you mean?
that i get to say mine is the best and you get to doi the same. I get to insult your intelligence and get to do the same to me. This is called a free conference of ideas. :-)
I'll never be able to say mine's the best with a straight face.It does, however, suit my needs, so that counts for something. Denon DP-45 with shure M97, and it's gotta last a while, I got kids to put through college.
I'm just happy to be spinning vinyl, instead of succumbing to the digital world. Somebody pointed this out to me recently:
It scares the crap out of me.
Ain't that a joke?
and a Zen attitude towards high fidelity. May you listen in peace and contentment for all of your days.
Happy listening & enjoy the tunes.
I have owned a 3,000 dollar turntable. Now I have three DIY project tables and all three sound infinitely better to my ears than that monstrosity I thought I just had to own.My 125 dollar CLD Rek O Kut plays the best piano I have ever listened to in a turntable at any price.
Just goes to show you what you can do with a little imagination and time.
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