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Well, after doing searches and getting more confused on what I should go with, I decided to just outright ask you guys what you thought on new turntables. I am looking to get a start in vinyl with a decent sounding table. I, like everyone else, want to get the most for my money. By most, I mean the most sound quality for my money. Looks aren't as big of a deal for me. I tried the vintage route, but I have no local availability for vintage gear, and I have had two turntables arrive busted from ebay sellers. I'm done trying that. So, I have upped my budget to spend on a turntable (includes arm and cartridge) to around $500. I could be swayed to spend as much as $750, but that would take a lot of convincing. The tables I have seen in this price range that get mentioned a lot are:Music Hall MMF-5
Rega Planar 2 & 3
Technics SL1200 Mk5 KAB adjusted
Project (forgot model names, I heard they are the same as Music Halls)If I had the ability to audition these units in my area, I would do so, but unfortunately there are no dealers here. So, if you folks would be kind enough to offer your opinions, especially those of you that have had the chance to try more than one of them, I would really appreciate your input!
Follow Ups:
Is there anything you feel strongly about one way or another? I have the Maestro on my MMF-7 and I really have a hard time finding any general opinions on this cart in particular and Goldrings in general. Personally I think it's a good sounding cart, if not the most refined n the world. It seems to do a decent job of spacial imaging and has a palpable, if not seriously deep soundstage. Some recordings such as Caverna Magica (Andraes Vollenwider) which opens with the sounds of two people walking in a cave, really gives you the sense that you can "see" them moving around in the space.On the other hand, the other day I noticed a slight harshness in the treble that I'd not noticed before. Since I'd been experimenting with the VTF, I'd been dialing it down, and it seems once the table sits idle for a few days it doesn't sound as good. I generally leave my components on all the time. I put the setting back up to 1.8 on the dial and it seemed to come back to itself after a few albums.
I remember your saing that the dial was off by about 0.2g, but you never said which way it was off, so is the dial light or heavy on your table?
Over all, the midrange is really nice with vocals tending to project foward in the soundstage. I noticed the othe day when playing Joni Mitchells - Mingus that she seemed to be standing in the room and slightly to the right.
The bass and mid bass has a nice weight and in Steely Dans - Pixelene from Everything Must Go, the song has a nice heft to it that is just right. The drums on the opening of the title cut are totally dynamic and the cosmic sax solo puts you right on the rim of the bell. All the songs on this album sound great to me though.
I have no complaints, but it could be that I'm just missing something that I don't know about. But ignorance is bliss, eh?
My personal experience says to shy away from Music Hall products. I can't say anything about the performance of the higher priced models but my MMF 2 was an unpleasant surprise after all the hype it received. Yech! The other models I have looked at seem very cheaply made for the price. Rega's have following although I haven't heard one. Needle Doctor is selling a demo Dual 505-4 that is probably a well made piece. The SL1200 is a solid machine that many are satisfied with. The SOTA Moonbeam has its proponents as well. I maintain that anyone spending under $1000 for a turntable needs to be buying a used one. Either buy from a seller that has the original packing material or one that has sold a lot of turntables and knows how to pack the things.p.s. I don't know where you live but every city had a high end store or two. It might be worth the drive to go check one of these out in person.
I agree about buying used, but I disagree with your avoid Music Hall products, just about any manufacturers base models in that price range are going to be one comprimise after another to accomodate the low price point, as there is no free lunch, so for the
same money you can easily buy a wonderful Vintage table that has
a dramatically better build quality and sonic potential.I believe the MMF 5 has to be pretty much the biggest bang for the buck on currently MFG. TT, the 7 MMF is a compelling value and a
definate step up, and I think despite it's relative obscurity the MMF 9 is a very serious value in a modest higher end table, those are BTW Project TT's.
Well the MMF5 has certainly receive rave reviews from the press. Unfortunately they were also quite enthusiastic about the POS MMF2 that I purchased. Sure it was "only" $300 but the construction quality looked like it should have sold for $150. It is possible to buy a budget component and still feel ripped off. I also think that many times a manufacturer's philosophy or style is consistent at both ends of the price spectrum. i.e. even a low end BMW has good driving dynamics while a high end Buick is still a softly suspended boat. If I buy a low end product from a manufacturer and it is a poorly designed overpriced junker, I would not buy another product from them. The MMF 5 and 7 may in fact be decent tables but I won't be purchasing one.
FYI: I just bought and VPI Scout and it is built like a tank.
Bob, I think Music Hall listened to the complaints about the mmf-2 and made some important upgrades to that turntable with the mmf-2.1. Granted, they weren't major upgrades, they couldn't be and still have a turntable that sells for $300 USD incl. cartridge, as Fred mentioned. But for those looking for an entry level belt-driven turntable with cartridge installed, the mmf-2.1 is a good choice. Vintage turntables have their strong points and appeal but for many (including myself) it's a risk and uncertainty that new turntables (usually) avoid.My positive opinion about the mmf-2.1 is even based on a bad experience with a defective part and poor customer service from Music Hall. Once everything was worked out though, I had a turntable that sounded pretty darn good (much better than a cheap table and I had one of those.) Plus, I could mess around with it to learn about the basics of turntable design and adjustment and not worry that I might screw up an expensive turntable or cartridge. You could make the same case with a used/vintage turntable, but there isn't a new condition starting point. A newbie with a screwed up used/vintage cartridge/turntable is in for some frustration and little or no recourse to have the "sold as is" problem resolved. Perhaps the best case is to demo and purchase a quality used turntable from a stereo shop. But many of us do not have that option.
Even with the problems I had with the mmf-2.1, I'd still buy another one if I was starting out. I even bought another Music Hall turntable when I upgraded. It arrived in perfect condition with the cartridge set up very accurately. No adjustments needed. I'm not implying that Music Hall turntables are the best choice for the money, but they are a good option if you want to buy new.
I'm fairly confident that if VPI or anyone else marketed a $300
table it wouldn't be much, how could it ?
Well there are a bunch of Japanese turntables under $300. I haven't heard any of them except the manual Sony at $150 (my local used vinyl shop uses one because it's cheap) and it sounded at least as good as my MMF2 and looked to be better built. I have seen the Thorens TD170 on line for under $400 and it looks OK. Every manufacturer has a lower quality limit below which they simply won't put their name on something. As I said, the MMF5 and 7 may be fine machines. My MMF 2's bearing assembly was evidence that either a. They don't know beans about how to design a platter bearing, or b. they just don't care. The error I am talking about would not have made the TT more expensive if done right. I am voting with my wallet and won't buy another product from them. Roy Hall is responsive and seems like a nice guy so this is not personal. Its simply that there are other brands out there and at $500 and up I would simply choose one of them instead.
I started with the Pro-ject Xpression, and purchased it new with a Sumiko Blue Pt.No.2. I have since upgraded to a Dynavector 10x5. Following the advice of several folks in this forum, I added a Speed Box, and an Iron Audio acrylic mat. I am pretty happy with this. With a good recording, I find myself thinking it can't sound much better. But don't get me wrong, I will definitely end up buying a higher end table. Maybe once that bonus check comes in ;> )
It comes with a basic entry-level cartridge but the tonearm is quite nice for that price. You could always upgrade the cartridge later. I don't know anything about Pro-Ject tables but this one was on my short list when I was considering $500 turntables.Tom
youre going to get a lot of pressure to go with the 1200 but the arm is just too massive and youre likely to get better sound from your system with the music hall.buying a new MMF is a safe bet. no question about the condition and the item will be properly shipped and it comes with the cart already aligned. they come with a pretty good cartridge too.
you didnt register in AA and register your system. its easier to help you if you do.
well, here comes the barrage of technics posts, brace yourself.
...regards...tr
Henry
Well, my system is up in the air right now as I am assembling that as well. I have a home theater setup already, but I am setting up a separate two channel system in my den. So far I have decided to buy some PSB Image B25's for the speakers, and probably NAD for the preamp/amp.Thanks for the tips on the MMF-5. To be honest, that's where I started out in my search, and wanted to see if it worth its cost versus the other tables in the similar price range.
You could get a big improvement in your proposed system by two simple, although maybe not inexpensive steps:1. Replace the cartridge that comes with the MMF-5 with something better. The one supplied is not good enough for that TT.
2. Do not use the built-in phono stage of a NAD, it is hard, cold, and transistory. Get a good separate phono stage, a Bellari or Graham Slee or something.
Ah, didn't even think about the phono stage. The Bellari VP129 looks like a real good deal, and I especially like the headphone jack on it. If I buy the bellari, I might have to make due with the standard cartridge on the MMF until a little more cash comes my way. Nonetheless, do you have any suggestions on cartridges for the MMF-5?
When it comes to cartridges, maybe especially with cartridges, there seems to be a wide array of opinions on which cartridge sounds "best" for a given price range. Goldring cartridges do not seem to be in high regard with many of the regular contributors; Denon's, for example, are often recommended. But if you do a search you'll find many others that do enjoy the Goldring sound, myself included. Hence my two bits of opinion.My advice would be to follow the advice of both hifitommy and Henry; if you get the mmf-5 give the 1012GX an honest audition before getting rid of it. It's a good cartridge and with that Pro-Ject tonearm, when that Gyger stylus is properly aligned, it's very quiet, tracks well without sibilance or inner groove distortion, and provides a good balanced sound. If that's what you're looking for. If not, then you can later try something else.
The NeedleDoctor has one of the best selections of Goldring cartridges and replacement styli.
Tom
It does make sense to try it out, since I will have it anyway. I am planning on buying the table and the bellari from the needle doctor, as I live within driving range of Minneapolis. Now if Jerry will just give me a deal since he doesn't have to ship them....... :)
Henry
Right, so that's why it would make sense for him to give me a deal if I picked it up at the store, rather than having him eat the price of shipping. We'll see what he says, I already emailed him.
i say keep the cart thats on the mmf5, and get the bellari from B&H photo for about $160 delivered. i really like mine and dont feel uncomfortable recommending it.later on down the line, if the cartridge doesnt sound as good as you like, then go for something else. you could even hold off on getting the bellari until you get used to your system. you would be changing things before evaluation, take your time.
...regards...tr
With the Bellari, you are limited to Moving Magnet carts, so possibly an Audio Technica AT-110E, 120E/T or 440ML, all under $100. They do require some serious break-in time before they begin to sing, however.
Or the venerable Shure M97xE for around $80. It's smoother, albeit not as detailed, and sounds great right out of the box.
Henry
Henry- Couldn't he use High Output MC's like the denon 110 and 160 as well ?
Dunno, Fred. 30dB just isn't enough gain for the 2mv DL-110 and 160 IMHO. My Stealth has 45 dB in the lowest gain setting, and with the DL-160, my vol control needed to go to 2 o'clock to get normal loud playback levels. It "might" be enough for a 2.5mv Dyna or the like, but I would not bet on it. The Bellari is much better suited to 5mv MMs.
Henry
Ah, very good things to think about. Anyone know what the retail price of the cartridge that comes with the MMF-5? Perhaps I could turn around and sell it right away.
The 1012GX Goldring retails for around $200, but I suggest giving it a fair audition. Don't dismiss it too quickly.
Henry
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