|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
202.4.4.24
Found this in a review by D. Olsher in the latest Enjoy the Music reviews:"It is ironic that 25 years after the launch of the standard CD by the Sony and Philips digital consortium vinyl LP sales have recently eclipsed those of the two high-resolution digital formats. The statistics are quite humbling. During 2004, vinyl exceeded the combined sales of DVD-Audio and SACD! The public has spoken with its pocket book; one can only conclude that the vinyl LP is presently the leading consumer high-resolution audio format."
Amazing - I would not have believed it. There's hope yet. Anybody know the actual numbers, like how many copies of a typical new-release LP are sold?
Follow Ups:
In theory, high-resolution digital is supposedly the ultimate audiophile medium, be it SACD, DVDA, or whatever. But in reality, the playback is so unpleasant (I think due to excessive RFI generation), that not only is vinyl still preferred amongst audiophiles, but I personally prefer Redbook CD over high-res as well. I find the slight audible loss in resolution in CD playback a far lesser evil than the fatigue that I've always experienced with high-res playback.And as I stated in the past, unless the RFI problem is addressed and solved in digital audio, high-resolution playback will continue to be the great idea that somehow couldn't fly.
and this is only new vinyl, the used market is a much larger market both in numbers and money. i would guess that used is 10 to 20 times the new vinyl market, however no one tracks it that i know of.
The hi-rez formats are not priced for the mass market, it's for the audiophile market. But audiophiles know that vinyl is superior to either format.
The numbers would probably be even more one sided if you consider used media sales which is really high for LPs.
And couldn't find SACDs anywhere in used or new music stores. One clerk scratched his head, looked everywhere and finally came up with a couple of Miles Davis SACDs. I thanked him and went back to looking through the racks and racks of lps....all on quiet Japanese vinyl. I couldn't believe the proliferation of record stores. I'm lucky the plane was able to take off, it was weighed down with all of my amazing scores.
Indie labels.A lot of indie labels are pressing most of their catalogs on LP, so I think more and more people in their 20's (like me) are buying vinyl. On the flip-side, I don't see very many new albums outside of the mega-mainstream coming out on these hi-res formats. Most of what I see is re-issues of older albums, marketed toward people foolish (and rich) enough to buy one of these overpriced machines. I say in five more years, SACD join minidiscs and laserdiscs in the media format graveyard.
The entertainment conglomerates that control music distribution have decided not to release very much popular music in the SACD or DVD-A formats.
In effect, they're strangling the format(s) to death.
I have an SACD player, and I'm sorry I wasted the money on it. The sound quality of a good SACD is just fine(though not as good as vinyl--still more compressed, narrower soundstage, etc). Unless you're a hardcore classical guy, or heavily into lite jazz, there just isn't that much available.
_____________________________
It also seemed that both the SACD and DVD-A releases for a given artist were fairly often not very carefully chosen, sometimes obscure
and far from the better stuff, maybe they were cheaping out ?The SACD Bob Dylan and Rolling Stones Hybrid releases alone are IMHO worth the cost of a Deck with SACD capabilities, and it seemed to me that the SACD performance was often quite good even on some of the really cheap decks.
And judging from comments here perhaps SACD will soldier on as an Audiphile Niche format, I see MFSL just released an early Frank Zappa
that I'm definately going to snag.
I'm all innerested!
Tis here http://view.exacttarget.com/?ffcc17-fe8f15757663007b73-fe3615727d64007f771575
Tis here http://view.exacttarget.com/?ffcc17-fe8f15757663007b73-fe3615727d64007f771575
It is just a MFSL gold CD. I emailed MFSL on this one a while back, and they told me they couldn't get permission from Capitol to do an SACD.
IBSmiester
Open Your Ears....
I'm really curious how it's going to sound. The current Ryko CD leaves a lot to be desired, and I'm really surprised that Gail Zappa would let them have access to the master tapes, as she's really protective of Frank's music. Oh well, I'm willing to take a $30 gamble. If nothing else, it'll make a neat little collector's item.
...But I am a bit lost on that topic...
...The Ryko reissues were tinkered with, some more than others, by FZ when they were first released. Zappa was unhappy with the sound of some of them ans added and deleted various elements 9check out "Hot Rats," for instance - a very different album). On others, the tapes (Ampex) had allegedly deteriorated to the point that the low end was unusuable, so he rerecorded the bass and drums. Perhaps the Ryko masters were what Gail sold, while retaining the real original masters of the stuff.Does Capitol really have a say in this? The control of his stuff has gone through so many hands, it's hard to tell. I know they briefly distributed Barking Pumpkin, but I was under the (quite possibly mistaken) impression that, if anyone held some kind of rights to these early albums, it would be Universal, through Verve (which originally released them). Frankly (no pun intended), I don't think anyone but the family trust can give thumbs up or down at this point - unlike so many others, FZ was able to retain or regain the rights to almost all of his work.
You might be right there. I think she sold the rights all of his original albums, but I think she still owns the physical tapes. Who knows.
I haven't talked to you in ages. Did I ever tell you that I switched tonearms on one of my Thorens?
but the Dylan ones are patchy. Some of them (Blood on the Tracks, Blonde on Blonde) are pretty compressed and edgy. I mainly use them in the garage and the car. The Stones disks are very relaxed and sound very pleasant for digital. I'm not too familiar with the original LPs but the Stones SACDs get the thumbs up in a big way from me. Aside from that, for the most part SACD is a disappointment.DVD-a titles that I have tend to use a remix for the stereo track (Brain Salad Surgury comes to mind) which annoys me. The only titles I've liked so far are the Steely Dan and Fagen ones. They're still no match for vinyl, however.
It's very good indeed, but I like the vinyl copy just a bit better.
I'd be very happy with SACD if it received some support from the entertainment conglomos.
_____________________________
I find the statement a bit misleading, because in fact "hi-res" digital formats have always been the last format by sales. They haven't reached the sales volume of vinyl in 2004 just as they never had before.
The "event" of 2004 is rather the death of the cassette, which finally sold less than vinyl (but still more than LPs, half of the sales of vinyl being singles).
Nonetheless, sales of vinyl have been in steady decline (and not a slow one at that).
But frankly, the whole discussion is marginal. The only real business issue is CD vs. file downloads, possibly with music videos being an interesting side-show riding on the coat-tails of the huge success of DVD-video. Come on: vinyl, cassette, SACD and DVD-A together constitute 0.7% of the market, less than $100 million ...Sales for 2004 (in millions)
CD: .................................... 11,461.4
Music video (mostly DVD): ..... 607.2
vinyl: ......................................... 39.0
cassette: .................................... 23.6
SACD + DVD-A: ..................... 23.0Five-year trend (compared to 1999)
CD: ...................................... -12.1%
Music video (mostly DVD): .. +61.2%
vinyl: ..................................... -34.7%
cassette: ................................ -97.9%
SACD + DVD-A: .................. N/A
Looking at the RIAA 2004 yearend stats table, the following seems to be true:
-All formats have experienced decline in the last 5-6 years except for music videos. (CDs sales did tick up a couple of % last year).-Decline has been greater in the last couple of years for SACD & DVD-A formats than for LPs.
-LP sales $ did exceed SACD & DVD/A sales $ last year.
-Rate of decline for units shipped seems to have slowed in the last couple of years for LPs.
-Percentage of change in units shipped from 2003-2004:
LP <11.9%>
DVD/A <20.6%>
SACD <39.6%> !!!RIAA suggests that illegal downloads, alternative access (internet radio, etc.), and mp3s generally account for format declines (as well as the crap that is offered by the music industry today, my personal theory).
I remain optimistic about the vinyl, but I'd be a bit anxious if I were loading up on the current hi-rez digital audio formats.
Regards,
Jim
I find you statement a bit misleading because placing those other formats in the same list as Vinyl makes it appear as if the other formats are worthy of mention?Here are the fact's :
Vinyl : 23,6 million unitsThat's all folks...the other formats don't count for people who appreciate music. They are only of interest to accountants and marketing departments.
Enjoy the music.
.
mt
Just ministering to the heathens?
Because I have a couple of thousand LPs already! Old story: The problem is that there are no new classical releases on LP, only reissues.
nt
I like vinyl too, but let's not be fundamentalists!
Even assuming that every LP sounds better than every CD (which I doubt, but my experience is very limited), so what?Then the argument should be that all recorded music does not count for people who appreciate music. We should only be playing musical instruments and going to concerts because the real thing beats the best recording, indeed is the unattainable standard for the best recording. Are recordings for accountants and marketing departments?
I have plenty of CD's...( but SACD 's etc. I always viewed as a transient format... )Enjoy the music, wether it be CD, Vinyl or mp3.
To infinity and beyond!!!
Yeah, I never know just how far the vinyl commitment of Inmates can go ... I'm glad that, despite the name, we're sane after all!
I am always swayed by a good argument (or good sounding anything really).. "just because I am crazy does not mean I'm nuts!"
I am always swayed by a good argument (or good sounding anything really).. "just because I am crazy does not mean I'm nuts!"
The one thing that surprises me in those numbers is the decline in new vinyl sales compared to 1999. It seems to contradict my (admittedly anecdotal) perception of more new vinyl available and more people browsing it when I go to my favorite new vinyl store than there were 6 years ago (not to mention the proliferation of new turntables and vinyl accessories and pro-vinyl chatter in audiophile circles).I wonder if maybe that number really reflects an increase in DJ's using CD's and downloads. The DJ market is what kept the vinyl-pressing plants in operation during the lean years of the 90's, but now there are digital "turntables", etc. available. It would be interesting to see if the percentage decline still held up if you could separate sales of music lover/audiophile vinyl from DJ/dance vinyl.
i think people get into vinyl and buy new assuming its better, then find cheap used, and that the original pressings often sound better as i have and give up slowly on the new, also the new LP catalogs are somewhat limiting but used is vertually endless with half a century of vinyl! plus buy a RCM and you dont worry about diry LPs like you used to as you know that 95% can be cleaned up and the 5% you just toss with no big overall loss.
And if these numbers are compiled the same way chart sales are, mail order only and boutique stores wouldn't be counted.
Good point, I think the RIAA release says these are shipment/sales of US recordings.
But mail-order and boutique stores should count: anything that leaves the factory.
The large percentage of used vinyl sales that are not included. It is one format where I am willing to wager that the used market greatly outsells the new market.
just like in the good ol' days of regular, street corner record shop.
I understand that on a large scale, this is probably just still a niche, but it's important to note that the numbers don't account for these.
Admittedly I'm not a businessman myself, so I might be missing something about their business model, but I don't see how a thriving used market should do anything to promote continued production of new vinyl.
If anything, I could see how it might depress it.So I suppose it depends on what we mean by "continued existence of vinvyl". Production of new LPs is one thing, and it has been declining since 1999 (we're back to the 1994 level, though, so it could be merely cyclical). Probably it's also driven by DJs, though I cannot say because those numbers are not available for free, if in any way.
The survival of already existing LPs is a different issue, and I don't think it's being called into question.
In fact, Muzikmike is buying it all, and I'm sure he treats it very well in his Fort-Knox-like vault ...
.
. . . vinyl is below rounding error! And declining faster than the Army's recruiting numbers. Maybe we should start promoting the vinyl community as small, but perfectly formed
For what it's worth, my foray into midfi/hifi audio started with 5.1 and SACD. It was fully realized with a turntable and vinyl --------------> :-). The extra speakers and SACD are gone. Thanks Sony!
Great story. I am a youngster myself (relatively) who didnt grow up during vinyl's heyday, or at least I wasnt old enough to remember. I took the plunge into vinyl not really knowing what to expect, and I am not going back to the other side. I also will always prefer stereo to any surround 5.1 format....I have tried SACD also. It actually doesnt surprise me at all that vinyl has outsold these new formats.
nt
Hi-rez might as well never have happened.
. . . do not expect it to become a mainstream format again. Simply put, the masses care more about convenience than quality, and they are perfectly satisfied with mp3's and the like.I predict that new and used vinyl and the equipment to play it will remain available for many years to come, probably as long as any of us are alive. But it will remain a specialist market.
By comparison to the 56+ year existence of the LP, SACD and DVD-A will fade away within a few years. I think they are little more than a transition phase until all digital audio is served up by download rather than being sold in a physical format. At best, they will be replaced by hi-res downloads. More likely--given the indifference of the mass market--most "music" in the next century will be distributed in "good enough" low-res formats.
The thing to keep in mind is that, for us, music listening is an activity. For others, it's just background. (Nothing inherently wrong with that--we all have different passions and hobbies.)
I believe that SACD will continue to survive as a niche market catering to audiophiles. Same goes for vinyl although since more audiophiles have turntables than SACD players it will remain a bigger market with more available. The remainder of what you say is true - eventually all "normal" people (i.e. not crazy audiophiles like us) will just download their music on the internet. Could be big trouble for places like HMV, unless they shift their strategy to cater more to the audiophile crowd who will continue to pay premium bucks for good quality recordings...
Seems like new releases on vinyl are running just a bit more than cd's, so the price is not bad considering back in the late 70's lp's were running 7.98-9.98 for new stuff. So near or a little more than $20 for a new record is a little behind inflation it seems. And for "audiophile" vinyl, I remember seeing the MFSL pushing 30 bucks, and I have an old "Boston" 1/2 speed master that cost me $25. Back in 1981. So I don't think vinyl is going to die, just always trail behind the convenience of digital.
I have heard that with the new head of Sony that they may deep six SACD support like they did Beta. Just a rumour, but the source seemed reliable.
SACD exists only because the patents on CDs were about to expire, and Sony/Philips wanted to continue to reap royalties. Their plan appears to have backfired - all they accomplished was to start a format war vs DVD-Audio. In the mind of John Q. Public, "perfect sound forever" is plenty good enough, and he really has no intention of paying extra money for "perfecter sound for even longer".
I believe if they'd started producing the Hybrid CD/SACD's sooner and released a lot more of them included DVD-A on their Decks (Sony & Philips) produced and marketed lower end (cheap SACD Deck) the format would have taken hold, it seems obvious it wasn't going to replace Redbook CD as the New standard, but it could have become a reletively important market.Now History is repeating itself with the HD formats.
But the Corporate ego thing wins out over reason every time, the are essentially 100% LD, or differntly abled, perhaps massive doses of Ritalin might have helped ;-)
I think prerecorded Cassette format will be outselling High Res. Digital at some point the big guys have again snatched defeat from the jaws of victory with their format war and lack of support when it was needed most, they deserve it but we don't :-(
Then again I think I bought 3 last year and only because no vinyl version or the Vinyl version wasn't going to be released till the SuperNova.
that still will not stop the lowly 16 bit redbook cd from eventually killing off vinyl entirely. Now that both the hardware and the software masters are up to snuff, it's inevitable.Not heresy... just being realistic.
As a mass market thing CD has already killed off vinyl, did it a long time ago, but as a niche market I think Vinyl is going to be around for quite some time and after the used Vinyl starts petering out, as in some area's stuff like Hendrix that's in good shape is seemingly rare nd $$$, not that long ago Hendrix and other really popular used Vinyl was ubiquitous, at any rate it would seem that would really help increase the sales of that Vinyl as re-releases
why spend $$$ on noisy marginal used copies ?Also I've noted an almost universal fascination with Vinyl with younger friends, too young to have been exposed as kids, not only for the sound but the Cover art and the fact that the gear and the user involvement aspect is very attractive.
I have a 32 yr. old Woman friend who has spend 2 or 3 entire evenings spinning Vinyl and going through my collection looking at the cover art, I don't ever see Vinyl completely dying out.
cover art in cd jewel boxes and I can't help but think that it's a real shame that there may be younger folk out there being exposed to Roger Dean, Hypgnosis, or HR Geiger, etc. cover art for the first time by the inferior cd reproductions!Vinyl is a total package, textural, visual and aural. CD's can never compete with that.
When you're going on 56,and as weathered (rode hard and put up ert too many timres)looking as I am I need all the help I can get ;-)
.
despite rumors of it's demise being greatly exaggerated.
-Bill
Hey, I tried both new formats. Not bad, but not such an improvement over a well made CD. And, IMHO, still not quite up to vinyl. There are many factors with vinyl that do not apply to digital...and it's not just the sound. When I tell co-workers that I collect vinyl and vinyl playback equipment (all over 30)they all take a trip down memory lane and have a story about lying around listening to records all day, reading the liner notes and looking at the pics in a double album from their youth. I have NEVER heard a story close to that about CD's or SACD/DVD-A's for that matter.
-its demise that is. If Musikmike keeps buying at the current rate, he will corner the market. That will effectively shut down vinyl. It's like when the Hunts bought up all the silver - wait a minute. ;)
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: