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Recently you guys helped me retain a sense of balance when considering vintage gear vs. modern high-hype replacements. I come to you again for advice.
In the process of going over the components in my system, (CD input, VPI TNT vinyl input, step up transformer for the MC cartridge, Marantz Model 7 pre-amp, Marantz model 9 amps to Klipsch Kornerhorns) I have determined to finally clean up that rats nest of wires and cables behind the open system-support cabinet. In particular, I have all the power cords plugged into the outlets provided in the pre-amp. Once those slots filled up, the remaining requirements were satisfied through the expedient of a tangle of lamp-type extension cords. Enough is enough. I am determined to clean that up as the very first NEW YEAR resolution.
SO, I went over to the cable forum to see what other fellows are using in the modern world for this question. I was blown away completely, and never should have ventured there. They are paying $3000.00 and up for a six foot length of power cord! I am not kidding! And most are suggesting that every component in the system needs such a cord, to connect it to a $5,000-and-up “power conditioner”.
All I wanted to do was clean up the rats-nest of cables and cords - but here I am again….confused and seriously “behind the times”. So much so, that I have retreated here, without even as much as a peep around those cable guys.
My intuition is that I need none of that sophistication in the power supply, nor would gain from it on my vintage equipment. So I took a look at McMaster Carr (where I feel more comfortable than in, say, another super-dooper audio hype-end site) and see that a surge protected power strip, with eight receptacles (four on each side – and separated to provide sufficient space the occasional transformer) and an on-off switch, and can be ordered for $120.00. That is more what I had in mind, and it has a generous 10 foot cord. BUT, before I commit an unforgivable sacrilege, and find myself drummed-out and forever banned from the Audio Asylum, I shall delay ordering this power-strip until I have the benefit of some expert advice.
As always, I sincerely appreciate the time you spend in considering my questions and directing my efforts.
James
Follow Ups:
That $6K is absolutely 'off the wall'. It is unbelievable that any business would even market something like that let alone find audiophiles actually willing to buy it.I know there are some strange effects in high-end audio. Although I have extensive background in electronics and electrical power distribution design, I can not explain why 2 conductors of THHN #12 stranded wire did sound different than cheap #12 2-conductor speaker wire. The speaker wire shrunk the size of the soundstage.
I think I will market my own power station. I will take a 1800 rpm syncro-motor and run a 120vac generator for a perfect sinewave. Its called a dynamotor. Guaranteed perfect 60hz waveform. Being noisy, I will make available a sound reduction enclosure that installs remote to the listening room. 1.8 peak kilowatt output with a 1.5kw average, it plugs in to a standard 120vac @ 20 amp outlet. Only $4k. Any takers?
I have a thought as to why you're seeing a difference. How about the end connections? I have two sets of 32' 12 gauge, fine strand, rope lay, speaker cable, but from different manufacturers. For a while, I was puzzled as to why they should sound different. Eventually, I found that the end terminatins made the difference. I cut a little off each cable to get a fresh surface and soldered gold plated terminations on each. Now they sound exactly alike. I thought I had good contact on the terminations on both sets, but apparently, I just wasn't getting as good contact as I thought. Terminations were crimped spades on one end, gold plated dual banana plugs on the other. Really surprised me.
The connections looked good with fresh copper although I did not measure the resistance. That could be an answere.Anyways, I just would not believe that a noticable change was possible with a different speaker cable, but it did hear a difference. Capacitance would not explain it at audio frequencies, nor resistance, perhaps the connections.
Skin effect is also a possibility. But it would only affect the upper mids and highs, say from 5 kHz on up. So, can you describe the difference you heard? That would help to pin down what's going on.There's no magic. If you heard a noticeable and repatable difference you're looking at a frequncy response difference of 0.5 dB or better, so the effect should be quantifiable. You mentioned imaging effects, and often that's the result of better left-right symmetry. If you had equal length cables, that implies to me that the stranded might have had a poor connection in one channel. Have you tried going back to the stranded again, to see if the effect is repeatable. I also find it important to get others, who don't know what you're doing, to listen and see if they hear a difference.
I used to use my oldest daughter when she was living at home, as she had great ears. Often, I'd be sure I was on to something, so I'd get her to listen without telling her what the change was. Many times she'd tell me she didn't hear any difference. And then, suddenly, I could no longer hear a difference. I can attest that the Placebo Effect works. I'm an engineer and a long time lab person. I consider myself a trained observer of things technical. But in audio, I have to double and triple check everything. It's best if I can follow up a perceived difference with a measurement that confirms there was a difference.
I simply rewired the speakers with different wire to rear speakers on a HT system. I did not even test them, however the next day, I used the system and thought whats wrong with the rear speakers. They sounded smaller for lack of a better word & the soundstage the speakers produced had shrunk. I tried other material & same result. The speakers never did come back to the original sonics.Next item, the fish tank above my stereo leaked a few weeks later ruining the receiver. Out went the receiver to the junk pile & a new receiver plus new speakers were installed.
What you need depends to a significant degree where you live. In a major city, the power is pretty "dirty" and there are huge currents flowing in the ground returns. But if you're in a smaller town or a bedroom community, you don't need as much.I personally think that most of the power conditioning and expensive cord sets are pure marketing hype. What does fixing the last 6 feet of wire do for you when there's hundreds of feet in the walls that is just plain wire?
I'd try a good power strip such as you describe as the first step. If you feel you might be getting some digital or RF noise coming in on the power lines, add some ferrite clip on thingy's to each power cord. They cost a few bucks each and Radio Shack has them.
If the contacts in your wall outlet are loose or sloppy, you might want to consider a new receptacle. Hospital grade buys you little except an isolated ground, requiring a separate ground lead to the receptacle. You can't use the box as the ground path. But that does no good unless all the outlets and switches, and lights on that branch circuit are also hopital grade and a separate ground wire is run all the way back to the main box, ideally a separate ground wire for each outlet! As you can see, most guys who fool with this stuff just make themselves feel good without really doing anything useful.
"It sounds so much better!" The old Placebo Effect at work once more. I'd bet you could replace their power cords with cheap stuff without telling them, and they'd never know.
Jeez, I can feel the flames already. But then I used to specify the wiring for, and work in, instrumentation labs, so I know what it really takes.
What does fixing the last 6 feet of wire do for you when there's hundreds of feet in the walls that is just plain wire?What does fixing the first 6 feet of wire do for you ?
What you are filtering is grunge from other sources, especially digital ones as well as other sources of interference in your house, not the power source.
Your argument holds for line filters, but not for power cords or plugs, which is what I directed my comments at. I have used line filters in some cases.
JPS Labs cords (among others) are highly shielded and the ones designed for digital use frequently employ some conditioning.
Sure power cords can be antennae, so can all the unshielded wire in your walls. And unless you have a line filter, the shielding does nothing at all. In fact if the filter is at the input to the component, a shielded power cord is pointless. The filter would have to be in the plug/receptacle to make a shielded power cord usefull. Sorry, I just don't buy the argument. My Rotel CD player has a very nicely implemented line filter just inside the chassis. What would a shielded power cord do for me?
Jerry, I think you're probably right. It'd be fun to pull such a stunt then see the look on their faces, but then on the other hand, you may get yer head smashed for messin with their hygh dollar cables. ron
I've long wanted to sneak in and pull tricks like that. It would expose a lot of the hype and BS that clutters the audio world, and obscures some of the real issues.John Dunlavy has written about similar tricks in evaluating speaker cables. Like pretending to switch cables from 12 gauge to some impressive looking stuff, and having the subject proclaim it sounded better. Or mixing up the indicators on their switch box so that the subject thought he was listening to the exotic when it was really something else. He always picked the one he thought was the exotic. I suppose after you told them the truth, you could have a contest to see who's face got the reddest, and who's veins stuck out the farthest on their foreheads.
Thanks Jerry,
That is exactly what I will do. I live not too far from the Hoover Dam, but between here and that power source, is the City of Las Vegas.
James
You said:
Be advised that hospital grade receptacles are not isolated ground receptacles. An isolated ground receptacle can be had in hospital grade or most any grade you desire. But a hospital grade isn't by default an isolated grade. Just thought you might care to know. This, I know, as I have worked in the hospital engineering field for the last 20something years.
Russ
P.S. I highly encourage you to read up on balanced power. It's not hype and is based on solid engineering. In a hospital, it is widely used in operating and critical care areas, just under a different name, isolated power, and for different reasons. Only recently has it gained acceptance for audio and is now part of NEC for recording studios and such. I have had very favorable results in my audio system with it. It's less about providing clean power and more about giving the noise a way to self cancel.
Russ,Thanks for the heads up. I've always specified isolated ground receptacles for the calibration areas and other critical instrumentation areas. A separate pulled ground wire for each receptacle (star grounding, basically). In the last good lab I had, we used a triple Faraday shielded isolation transformer for our power, and the ground for the lab was 6" diameter, 3/8" wall copper pipe run under the computer flooring. That was tied to a driven ground that was dedicated to our lab. I get the idea of balanced power, you're saying it makes the noise common mode? It would seem to be common mode in the secondary only if it comes in from outside, on the primary. Noise generated on one leg from the secondary side would not be, would it?
If hospital grade doesn't get you an isolated ground, what makes it hospital grade?
Mostly what hospital grade gets you is a more rugged receptacle better able to cope with abuse....and really , superior blade retention. A good hospital grade receptacle and plug (cord cap) will make you feel like you are going to break the drywall or rip the whole nine yards out when you try to plug and unplug it.As far as common mode and all of that with balanced power ....well just do a search and read and see what you think. It's pretty clear to me that you have a good deal of knowledge and I will leave it to you to decide it's merits or hype. I can only tell you that I feel it's well worth the money and effort. But I wouldn't pay $500 for an "audiophile" unit:).
If one was to try it the, first thing I think you would notice is a real total absence of background noise. You can fire up the system (phono stage even) and crank it to full volume and hear nothing....really you can't tell your equipment is on until you play something. Then little by little you notice a great increase in low level detail....stuff that was somehow hidden that you never missed...also a reduction in glare/hard edged transistor sound/digital artifacts.
It is not by any means a cure all for a bad system but instead something that helps all parts of a good system perform at their best. Just like the steps you have taken in the lab's electrical system. Likely the better the lab's euipment the more pains you would of taken rather than say the better equipment has less need for clean power due to it's superior filtration and such inside the equipment. Of course YMMV and certainly your stereo as well as incoming power all play a part in it's potential contribution in your household.
Isn't the cable forum fun? You think it's bad check out the propeller heads!Anyhow, for the best bang for the buck in cords try a search over on cables for "Volex". They make replacement cord sets that electronic house's like Newark sell. They use a Belden cable that's about as good as you can get for the money. While you can buy the Belden cable and make your own with a hospital grade plug and have something even better for the price of the Volex it's a quick and easy no-brainer solution. Next step down in price is a generic 14/3 SJ cord with a plug of your choice....and yes it does make a difference.
But, IMHO, the thing you really want to do is run balanced power. Do a goggle search on it as well as here on the asylum. It makes a big difference. You need not pay crazy money for a special transformer. A 480/240 by 240/120 single phase 5KVA transformer can be made to work (wire primary for 480 by feed it 240 and wire secondary in series and ground center tap/series connection and you will have two legs of 60 volts 180 degrees out of phase). If you buy salvage/used/ebay you can get one cheap. Try local electrical contractors and look for an old one they removed...case of Bud oughta do it:)
In addition I strongly advise individual small isolation transformers for digital equipment such as CD players, DAC's, DVD's, TV's...etc....anything you have connected to your stereo system.
I would put my money into the transformers before I bothered with the cords, especially since all of your stuff is two wire anyhow and you might get into hum problems with 3 wire cords. However I do think it is best to use a grounded cord even on vintage gear.
DON'T use a commerical power strip surge suppressor! They are bad for sound(same for UPS's)! Instead head on over to Jon Risch's web site and read up on how to build yourself a good surge suppressor/filter. Best to put it in front of the balanced transformer. All analog gear gets plugged into balanced power transformer and the digital gear has a small isoltion transformer between it and the balanced power transformer.
Now I do know that this is more than you wanted to hear and might not care to bother with it. If you only are interested in a way to plug all your cords in then you have three easy choices.
One, look for an older power strip (try thrift stores) that used regular duplex receptacles. Take it about and gut it and buy new hospital grade receptacles and install them along with a new 12/3 cord and hospital grade plug. Do change the wall receptacle too to a hospital grade.
Two, head on down to home depot or an electrical supply house and buy a four square box and a cover plate for it that holds two duplex receptacles and make your own. Again use hospital grade receptacles and a 12/3 cord.
Three, buy a hospital grade "4-Plex receptacle". This is truly the fast and easy way to go. Be sure to get the "portable box" that goes with it! You can take a look at WWW.Grainger.com stock#'s 6C567 (you want a 6C561 but the picture is wrong 6C567 is the same thing just in 20 amp which you can use but don't need as 15 amp is fine) and 6C590. Also see stock# 1A948 for the type of power strip that uses standard duplex receptacles. Stock#'s 5A050 & 1XC31 for the 4 square box and cover plate. Stock# 5A078 for receptacles and 5A076 for plug. Not that I would buy the stuff from Grainger but just so you can see what I am talking about.
Hope this helps...sorry if it's more than you wanted to hear:)
Russ,Thank you for that response. I have made a copy of it and will study the ideas you suggest. For now I shall just use the strip I described to get the system back up - but will attempt to, first understand, and then follow up on your suggestions.
James
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