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Setting a speaker on it's side...am I allowed to do this? I'm trying to outfit my shop/garage and speaker placement and size are a concern.There is not much clean wall space,it's all shelving.I can only afford a speaker height dimension of about 16" max.Since most speaker cabinets are taller than wide, are there speakers that will work OK on their side? I could go with say,a 15"wide x 24"tall and tip it. Never tried it or thought about it before.Speakers are going to be about 6' off the floor,maybe I can get some better bass with a larger speaker this way rather than a smaller,proper bookshelf?
What are the construction or technical concerns with this? Are there any vintage speakers that are known to perform alright in this fashion?
Follow Ups:
to fill in the quieter passages? ;^)
Ahh,yes...Another factor that could potentially effect the accoustics of my space,LOL!
nt
It was very comon to put speakers sideways on a shelf durring the time that many of our prized vintage speaker new. Allison had a very efective design for this. A lot of the speakers were designed for this type of placement. The driver placement on my extreemly large Sansui SP2000 speakers leads me to think that they were designed for this type of placement.Dave
The Dynaco A-25s always worked well on their sides, even mounted on a wall. They are about the unfussiest speakers I've had direct experience with.
I've used them on their sides, and in the KLH Twenty system they were designed to be used that way. Didn't sound as good as the Dynas, but I think it was the room.
What is the size of the room and how far apart will they be?Al
It is a shop/garage,far from optimum conditions (hard surfaces everywhere,concrete floor,necessary high speaker placement,6' or higher.No real obvious listening position,other than the TV monitor,which is placed alongside the stereo receiver,where one speaker will be placed(approx.6' off floor).Not really concerned about TV sound(TV is on rarely),concerned about music.Garage is approx 14'x 26',11' ceiling height(flat ceiling).The 2 speakers are going to be opposite each other,on the long opposing walls about 12' apart,additional speaker placement is somewhat flexible,but must be 6' or higher off floor.
If I read you correctly, you are putting one speaker on each long wall
so that they are facing each other. Not a great set up for a stereo image, and a great formula for standing waves.I have a suggestion. Get a pair of Bose 301's, the first version with the little vane in front of the tweeter. They are designed to lie on their long side, they really sound quite good, and have decent bass. They were made in mirror image pairs and are better at getting a stereo image out of "problem" locations than anything else I can think of. They also "stack" very well, so 2 pair stacked (one above the other on the next shelf up) with the tweeters on opposite ends and the vanes well adjusted will give you great sound. Gives you an expansion plan.
Don't let the Bose naysayers put you off. The early Bose are quite good.
Jerry
Yes,you have a good handle on the layout,and the problems with the speaker location(s).The things is,that there really isn't any one spot or location to focus on(as there is in a seating area)most of the work is done while standing up and moving around the area.The Bose suggestion is very interesting,I need to research a bit to get some grasp on the Bose sound theory.Do you believe that Bose speakers you suggest will perform OK facing each other? Will it create decent stereo at different locations? That's the challenge,not to get the greatest sounding stereo sound ever,just to get the best out of a poor situation.
As for Bose,don't Bose guys meet the 2nd Tuesday of every month,and wear masks and disguises or something?
With your speaker placement, you'll have problems with any speaker.Staggering them along the sidewall (one speaker closer to the front, one closer to the back) might help, but it's going to be a "try it and see" situation. Using a three piece system (two satellites and a subwoofer might help). You could set the sub on the floor or put it on a high shelf near the ceiling (putting it near the ceiling is the same as putting it near the floor)
Something like my Bose AM-5 series II which has a narrow sub and two "two-cube" satellites might also work well. The sub is flat enough for placement on a shelf and the crossover is 250 Hz, so the satellites won't excite the standing waves across the garage. Then the two little cubes that make up each satellite can be angled apart by maybe 90 degrees to give a very wide area of coverage. That's probably your best bet, and used ones go for cheap.
I have the AM-5's in the living room and the sound is surprisingly good. They were difficult to set up, but I eventually got it right.
Bose owners who have serious audio as a hobby get together only at night and follow a circuitous route to the meeting place. (ordinary owners brag on them) We use assumed names and wear voluminous black cloaks and hoods to disguise our body shapes. Remember, the 901 has a pentagram shape. As part of the ceremony, we take turns destroying a Wilson or von Schweikert speaker or a high end turntable that we have kidnapped in retaliation. The high point of 2006 was burning a Quad ESL at the stake.
It's funny, back in the 70's Bose was quite highly thought of and the 901 was a hot item. Now it's the whipping boy of the "high end". Based on my experience, I'd have to say that most detractors have never heard a well set up system. Very few stores have them set up well, and even the Bose outlet stores are often poorly set up. One of the common problems is finding the wiring is out of phase in one connection or another. That really torpedos the sound. There are six wrong connection possibilities and only 1 right one. About half the stores I have been to have miss-wired systems.
Jerry
First of all...LOL at your Bose Meeting comments! It's good to see you have a sense of humor,you know all of the Bose comments are well worn...maybe I am too.But just another comment about it,yeah I did do a little studying and started at Wikipedia. I knew that Dr.Bose had some alternate sound theories,that sound evaluation needed to be done and measured in a different way than it had been done previously,but what he came up with seems to be a little mysterious,they just don't seem to be very forthcoming...they seem to have created some mystery(I won't say mystique) around their development,marketing and product. But one thing that bothered me was in the Wikipedia article(Bose-company) was this automotive suspension system that they disclosed they have been working on for 20 years...electomagnets that will help cars hop over potholes and such.In an age when a car can go from a paper concept to showroom floor in less than 3 years,it just seems weird,a little off,like when Radio Shack won't let you go untill you give them an address,that's the feeling I get from Bose Corp.
Hell,I don't care who makes my speakers,I don't carry any sentiment about that,leave your baggage at the door and close your eyes,and go for what pleases your ears.
I did some searches here and see you are a supporter of the Bose 301s from way back,and from no other reason than from direct experience and head to head trial and error.You seem unbiased,and you like other speakers but seem to have found that the 301 is workable in tough situations and a steady performer in most others.It's got me interested,and the looks of the early ones would really work well with much of my decor inside(the area I'm inquiring about has no aesthetic concerns,really) so I'm tempted to try 'em.
These units were made in the 70's...what kind of shape are they generally in and what work can I expect to get them in top shape?
Can they be paired with a sub effectively? I also appreciate your advice on the high sub placement...something I hadn't known or considered.Your latest suggestion is also very interesting,seems to be a smart way to go also. I think you value speaker placement and room integration above all else,I tend to agree,and value your experience.
Lots of stuff here, so let me answer the easy one first. There are 5 versions of the 301. Only the original had the moveable vane. Series II & III had two tweeters one facing diagonally forward the other backward at the same end. Those would be my second choice, as they are not as flexible as the original and they pretty much have to stay horizontal. (the original, being the first, it was not called series I)The original had a two piece foam grill. one piece over the 8" woofer, and the second, an L shaped piece covered part of the front and one end. The cone tweeter was angled ouward from the end, away from the woofer and the moveable vane hung down in front of it. By adjusting the vane the highs could be aimed left, right, or forward. Thus it could be stood on end with the tweeter sound directed forward by the vane. They were sold in mirror imaged pairs with the tweeter vane control knob on top. they could be used with tweeters inboard, outboard or standing vertically with the tweeters at the top or inverted with the speaker mounted high up and the tweeter at the bottom. Two pair were awesome and were used with the tweeters at opposite ends.
Now the problems. The woofers have foam surrounds, so they will probably need replacement. second, the foam grills deteriorate over time and you'd need to fabricate some frames and cover them with acoustical grill cloth. (later versions had cloth covered grills)
They also used wire wrap terminations inside and the earliest ones probably could use new caps.
Last I knew Hawthorne Sound in Seattle had some.
Set up is at least as imporatant as the gear itself, maybe more. I had a near ideal room in my house and it was easy to set stuff up, but most of us aren't that lucky and you need to work to overcome the room. The original 301 gave me a very flexible tool to work with.
Amar Bose started doing acoustical research at MIT in the very early 60's. One of his major contributions at that time was to show that conventional paper cone speakers could be equalized to give virtually perfect reproduction. He developed the 2201 research speaker system for that (an eigth of a sphere with 22 drivers on it, that sat in a corner on the floor) and sold 36 of them to other researchers. He did a lot of other psyshoacoustic research and formed some strong opinions about the generation and perception of sound. This is nicely explained in two issues of the MIT magazine in 1973, and the work seems sound to me. The early Bose speakers came out in 1971 or 72 and the 901 was followed by the 501, the 301 came next, and then the 601. In many respects I think these were company's best.
There's nothing wrong with the concepts behind these first models, except that the 901 and the first two generations of the 501 are very dependent on the room and the placement in the room. The 301 as I mentioned is easy to work with, and the 601 is less demanding than the 901 and 501. Both the 901 and 501 need a lot of clear wall space on both sides of each speaker. A good 3 feet or so is needed and the wall has to be solid and reflective. No drapes, no openings, no large furniture between the speakers, and well away from the corners. That means a wall about 13 to 16 feet wide that's clear and solid. Not many real homes have that and not many shops did either. The 901 needs to be out from the wall aways, but the 501 is pushed tight up against it. 901's were often hung from the ceiling in slings to get them above the furniture, and that helps a lot.
If you had a good set up, the sound could be very good. I had 301's and 501's. Note that Bose recycled the numbering system, so that there are modern 501's, a totally different speaker. The old ones were a squatty 24" high floor stander that was 14.5" wide and deep with a 10" woofer. The new 501 is tall and slender with a 5 1/4" woofer.
My favorites were the 901 series I & II; 501 series I, II, and III (III had a tweeter and vane system like the original 301 and was easy to place); 301 series I (or II and III if you had the right room); 601 series I.
I currently have the AM-5 three piece system in the living room, mainly because of the high WAF. It works very well but was a b---h to set up in my large living room and impossible in my den (believe me, I tried) I've had it apart and measured it, and it's a very clever and deceptively simple looking design. Not as clever and deceptively simple looking as an Advent, but close.
If you decide to go with the AM-5 in your garage, let me know and I'll be glad to help you with set up issues.
Jerry
Thanks for taking the time with that one,Jerry!Your post is an excellent distillation of previous posts of yours that I came upon when I performed a search of Bose 301 in the asylum.
Makes it much easier for the simple-minded (i.e.:me) to understand.You have some excellent information regarding setup.May I ask how you developed all of this information.I am very curious to know how you have developed the information of the speaker placement regarding it's immediate surroundings.Is most from trial and error experience? Have you worked with setup with various makes and models of speakers over time? I think when all of my gear is ready to go and ready to setup I will start another thread,and go through the process with you as I go,probably in about 2 weeks or so.I am very interested in seeing how you go through it,and your method of getting it right (I am guessing that your way is somewhat methodical and not merely hit or miss).
I am definately going to look for a couple of pairs of 301s.With your information,their ideal size and their look, I am sure that I can use them somewhere.I hope that I can get some advice with the rebulding of those,as I am sure they will need work to some degree.
I will probably look for an AM-5 setup also.It seems to me that this type of system would hold the ultimate in flexibility/adjustability,with their tiny speaker size,in a difficult space.Are you recomending one setup, 1 sub and two small satelites,or more? Why the Bose setup for this,and why the Series II?
I am curious to get your opinion on how a company such as Bose,with all of their assets and supposed product testing/development.would not be able to vastly improve and upgrade their new products over their older products (in real world setings) and how their 30y.o. products would be better than their latest.
I apologize for any future carpal problems you may have,LOL!
Slightly forward of the edge of the shelf or a sturdy method to aim them down slightly. Piece of carpet underneath. Tweeters both toward the center.That is what I would try. Some real good speaker guys are on this site and their opinions are worhtwile.
Al
Most "bookshelf" were meant to go on their sides, as that's the only way they'd fit on a bookshelf. Not a problem.
--
simul justus et peccator
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