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In Reply to: Any ARC SP-3C owners? What do you think of the upgrade? posted by Tromatic on March 1, 2007 at 18:30:45:
Tromatic,The SP3 seems to have a special following and this is embodied in the fact that Audio Research is offering an upgrade 30+ years later that costs as a substantial portion of what the premaplifier did new.
I've never actually heard an SP3 before and then after the current upgrade, so I can;t comment directly, but from my exceperience with other vintage gear suggests a little caution in upgrading Audio Research. ARC has a reputation for upgrading that infuriates some with what is seens as constant expensive changes that claim to substatniatlly improve sound which triggers in the owners a but of pique, "Why did you sell this to me as the best thing ever made and then a year later, make a MKII acalling it the best?". The answer is that ARC does so much constant refinement and re-evaluation in light of experience and new components aand they pass these on in products.
Since 1985 I've been a very happy Audio Research SP8 owner and the SP8 had no less than 7 versions. Mine is still completely original including tubes and it won't be long until I have to replace the caps and tubes, and it's a debate in my mind already whether I will have ACR replace the big orange Spragues with the white Infincaps of the Rev 7 or keep the sound as closely to it's original sound. This is a debate too while I'm preparing to rehabilitate a very original McIntosh MR67 tuner- will "hot-rodding" add something in one place and take away elsewhere? Old McIntosh seems to some with a lot of warnings about pushing it in unintended direction with modern boutique pieces as the overall balance of the original is shoved to one side or another.
My sense with ARC is that they are usually so refined by the time they're sold they are usualy very useful for a long time, upgrades without very careful overall consideration can be dangerous- both convincing but it seems with an unintended penatly elsewhere, but probably the factory upgrade of the SP3 will give it some qualities of the later 12AX7 based SP's- it will bcoem "faster" and posssibly a bit "leaner" or more neutral. And, I say when shifting preamp neutrality- in either direction, be careful what you wish for! A lot of people get very attached to the kind of distortions they like better, like a "warmer" or "tubey" sound. I like the romantic tube sound a lot, but if it's too much sweets in the diet after awhile I tend to return to the enthusiastic clairty and dynamics of later ARC.
As I think the SP8 is the ultimate expression of the SP3/12AX7 line, my suggestion would be: 0ne- try and hear sP3s orignal and C-upgrade as closely to side by side as possible, and in light of the cost of the SP3 upgrade, Two: consider an SP8. SP3s are valued at between $800-1200 now and if the upgrade is what $900?- the total cost of $1700-$2100 provides a lot of alternate choices!
A difficult decision and I think getting to hear an updated SP3 and compare to later ARC 12AX7 preamps- including the current SP16- might be the only clear way to answer.
The sad part of the story for me is so much of the gear I bought new is now moving onto Vintage Asylum!
Cheers,Bambi B
Follow Ups:
Thanks much for your reply. I have a place that regularly has more "modern" ARC gear like the 6 and 8 passing through. I'll give them a listen if I can.However, if there was ever a piece of audio gear that fits my auditory receptors like a drug, it's the SP-3. It may not be (well, not!) anything remotely "modern" sounding, and thank God for that.
Keeping it alive so I can pass it to my neices is the worry now! Consensus seems to be keep it far away from ARC and the so-called "upgrade".
BambiB, and my experiences with their LS-3 and LS-8 Line Stages mirror your experiences. In the case of the LS-8, I was able to procure the upgrade kit and do the work myself, thereby taking the mystery out of what was done to improve it. They provided schematics and drawings of the mods so I could evaluate their approach.In this case, there was, indeed, quite a bit of improvement between the LS-8 version I and II. The changes were quite involved and required that certain components be installed and mounted in specific ways. Things I would not have expected, like sound-deadening foam panels, were included as well as a new set of rubber feet. My impressions were that they did their homework on the improvements. BTW, the kit I purchased was intended for distributors outside of the US who would do the updates in those countries.
So, with that as a reference point, I'd expect to hear wonderful things with the upgrade of an old SP3. Still, for your estimates of the total investment, there are quite a few alternatives.
Oh, and on that issue of your gear becoming 'vintage', I'd suggest that, in fact, you were really just ahead of your time in picking the right gear!
BTW, I'm one of those Mac guys that has no problem bringing old tube gear up to date with new components of the original values and thinks its the right way to go. Seems like AR thinks the same way......
Cheers,
David,
I think you upgraded your LS8 the best way- take advantage of hundred's of hours of listening by people with critical hearing and, importantly, the technical knowledge of the gear to be able to make effective improvements- they know what change will affect which thing and contribute to an overall improvement. The person at home, no matter how enthusistic, can rarely have this kind of time, money, and expertise to access and experiment with about every Hovland, Solens, Inifinicap piece made, constantly reference the original sound, and determine which component is the optimium contribution to the sound.The overall improvement is the critical aspect for me as something that just makes a huge bass or sweet midrange is likely to upset the aspects of overall balance I sought originally.
Yes, I think I like the SP3 c- upgrade quite a lot, as it is so well worked out, but for me, the improvements that I like are already present in a good Revision 4 to 7 SP8. If a person is going to be putting $2,000 into an SP3, it would be wise to be very sure about the direction of the outcome as well as other possibilities. With careful buying, $2,000 could buy a really nice SP8 at about $1,100 and one of ARC greatest tube amps- a D70 (65W, 6550s) at about $900. The SP8/D70 in combination, especially with electrostatic speakers, is one of the "magic" audio combinations of all time. It won't be long too that $2,000 might buy most of a used LS16 and PH3SE, for those that want the modern, remote control stuff,..
McIntosh: I'm talking to various people regarding my MR67 tuner and have spent three months buying NOS tubes. I';d like to put this is super condition and then spend the next 30 years listening- I think that tuner is unlikely to be surpassed for the way I'd like to use it. As I listen to FM in the office 100 times more than at home, it's likely this MR67 will be the office tuner: Cambridge Audio 640C/McIntosh MR67 > Audio Research L3 > Audio Research D130 > Vanderstenn 2C. The lush, deep MR67 through the neutral and dynamic LS3 and D130 is quite astounding. The solid state stuff is an experiment- after 20+ years of all tube- as I want good sound in the office where I actually listen most, but don't like to run expsensive tube stuff when it's often idling or muted. Still, I'm quite sure the LS3 will turn into the SP8 in the near future and I'll just put Sovteks in the phono spots so as not to burn the original Siemens ECC83s needlessly.
But, it's still a debate with me as to degree changes to the MR67 I'd like- I just don't have a reference to what putting in Solens coupling caps or whatever will do. As I 'm simultaneously completely retubing, will I end with such a different MR67, will I be happy? This project will cost about $900 total in the end and that's a serious tuner investment in time and money. Of course, this is essentially the same debate our friend Tromatic is having over the SP3- how to know if an uopgrade is worth the cost and is it really an upgrade- and my native skepticism and frugality means I'd only do the upgrade if I could hear an example that's been done- and placed in a very similar of the same system.
Cheers,
Bambi B
[ Audio Research: SP8, SP10, D115, LS3, D130 / McIntosh: MX110, MC240, MR67, MR77 ]
and can appreciate that its hard to plan for a specific sonic character you'd *like* to have.When I went through a set of MC-225s and MX-110s, I deliberately listened to them as I replaced each set of interstage coupling caps. This was after I had redone the power supplies, of course, to ensure that that wasn't affecting the results.
What I learned was that, in the MX-110s, each successive replacement of caps - working from the inputs to the final 6U8s - improved the authority of presentation and stabilized the stereo imaging. This last part was the most surprising. It was like having the sonic stage expand further beyond the speakers and gain depth with each successive replacement of caps.
In the power amps, the first stages - out through the phase splitter - had the same effect of improved authority and soungstaging.
I used only Solen and Auricaps in one set of MX-110/MC-225s to minimize that variable, too. The reason for 2 brands had to do with values and voltage ratings available from those companies. Frankly, I doubt any specific cap brand varies that much from what I've described above compared to the old caps that were in these units.
This was the experience that convinced me that updating to contemporary components does, indeed, return the amp's circuits to what they were originally capable of.
Since that experience a few years ago, I've redone a HK Citation II, some MC-30s, an MC-240, 2 C28 preamps, a Citation I preamp, and most recently, a set of MC-75s. All have had the same reaction to recapping. I don't sit through a listening session with each set of caps these days, either. Its become too consistent to hear any differences.
So, your question of, "will it change the sonic character?" is Yes. Will it let the circuits do their job? Yes. Will you like it? It depends on your expectations. Is it worth it? That depends on your pocketbook, I suppose.
I have a sense that you'll like it, given your taste in gear and your ear.
Cheers,
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