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Can anyone explain in very clear terms for an electrically challenged individual, how to install the Hammond choke 193L like michaelv20850 did at the outlet fedding his line conditioner?
Thanks
ChrisAlso, where does one buy this choke and roughly what does it cost?
Follow Ups:
The choke works so good for me that i am thinking of getting more. The question is whether we need more than one? or it won't help? or it helps if the AC line is really dirty?
We don't know until you do the experiment and determine the point of diminishing returns.In my house, I use a 1 KVA filament transformer with a damped secondary in place of a Hammond choke as a parallel filter on the dedicated AC circuit that feeds my Wadia CD player. Even with this device, I find benefit from treating the other dedicated lines to my monoblock amps, and the other convenience outlet circuits throughout the house. Filters at the primary noise sources also help.
Think of damping your house's AC circuits in the sense of damping a car's suspension. You may recall seeing an old junk car with inoperative dampers ("shocks") on the highway: the wheels bounce up and down continuously and the car bounces several times every time it hits a bump. This is like your house wiring without chokes or dampers installed. The effects of RF noise are magnified by resonances in the house wiring.
On the other hand, there can be too much damping. Put racing dampers on a passenger car and the ride is seriously degraded. Too many chokes or too much resistive damping may increase the reflections of RF noise within your house wiring and degrade the audio system performance.
Since the optimum amount of damping is difficult to predict, buy the chokes a few at a time, let them settle, and listen carefully for improvements. If adding a choke does not seem to improve things, move it to another circuit or put it aside. You may need it later if you change the wiring or set of non-audio appliances in your house.
Honestly, i don't really know.Right now, i plug the choke in the second outlet in the the chain. My gears connected to the first outlet in the chain. There are about 10 outlets through out the room and an ajacent room. Luckily, my gear is the only item using power in this circuit line ( i would consider it as a dedicated line).
I think i will one more to see if it gives improvement.
especially if you have contemporary non-audio appliances that may be strong RF noise sources. Things like digital video recorders (TiVo and the like), microwave ovens with complicated controls, high-efficiency furnaces, personal computers, garage door openers with rolling codes, etc., etc., all seem to contain switching power supplies for the computer controllers these days. They generate a lot of RF noise and put it back onto the AC line.In-line filters for these things can help a lot. Many surge protection power strips also contain EMI/RFI filters.
I'm hardly an expert but just wanted to remind that some EMI/RFI filters are themselves sources of noise . . . it would be nice to have the ability to calculate and to measure/evaluate just what is really needed to do the job right. Not something I am currently in a position to be able to do.
There is some benefit with the common surge protector strips, which is why I recommend them. The MOV surge protection devices within them are reported to be noise sources, and the circuit-breakers, pilot lights, switches, and general flimsy construction all make them less than ideal.However, they are easy for non-DIY audiophiles to find and install.
I have a transformer hum in my cdp. So i plan to get this XDC•2 AC Enhancing Filter to reduce the hum. ( i don't have ground loop hum in the system by the way)
http://www.musicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=ACIAXDCI just want to know if it will conflict or defeat the effect of Hammond choke?
http://www.diyparadise.com/tunedchoke.html
And especially
http://diyparadise.com/dablok.htmlAlso possibly helpful:
http://www.wduk.worldomain.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2604I know nothing about the CIAUDIO AC enhancing filter, but it occurs to me that it may be little more than the DIY Paradise DaBlock, in which case you can probably save some money by DIY as it is quite simple.
Thanks. I will look at it.
You can buy choke from partsexpress.com for about $36 plus shipping. That's where i got the choke.for the connection, i use a wire (14 gauge, 3 prongs). And i use wire nut to connect them. I'm sure someone with more expertise than i do can give you better and detail connection.
I plug the choke in an outlet which is also in the same line of the outlet where i plug in my power conditioner.
in my DIY Power strip. it has a few Auricaps across the line.
I won't get the choke for about a week, a 193L. I guess I can try it in my power strip with the caps and without.
But has anyone already tried both and found one to be better.I don't use filtering on my amps but I assume maybe the 193M might work in this spot.
Are we just talking CDP DACs and Pre or are we talking amps as well. Sorry if I missed this somewhere before.
Yep...take em' out. The 193L doesn't work well with the Auri .47uf across the line...matter of fact take them out of everything you modded with the Auri's...parallel filters no matter where they are located on the line talk to one another...and sometimes the ringing harmonic reaction is really bad. I have had a hard time finding parallel filtering that works well with the choke...but after playing around for a few months I came up with a design that works fantastic. E-mail me for more info if interested.
Does this mean that I would need to remove all the Quietlines I have throughout my house if I installed a choke at my system outlet?
Thanks for any advice
Chris
Quiet Lines or R-C filters dampen AC circuit resonances. If they made an improvement in your sound when you installed them, then removing them will undo the damping benefit they provide at those locations.The Hammond choke is an alternative way of dissipating RF noise. The steel core in the choke is similar to the steel core in a transformer. The core has magnetic domains that have to switch direction in response to current changes in the windings. The domains can only do this so fast, and ignore changes that go too fast for them. Thus, every transformer with a steel core has an upper limit to its frequency response. The input coil will look like a resistor for much higher frequencies, whether the device is a transformer or a choke.
At sufficiently high frequencies, the noise will see only the coil's wire resistance, not the inductance (ignoring second-order effects like stray inductance and capacitance). Thus, there will be an optimum-size choke, with a DC coil resistance that dissipates the noise instead of reflecting it. Chokes that are too small or too large will reflect more of the noise. This is similar in concept to selecting the correct resistance value for an R-C filter.
Try installing your choke tweak at your audio system. I suggest replacing your floor outlet with a duplex outlet such as the Oyaide Ultimo SWO-GX+, so that you have the extra outlet to use for the choke. A three-way tap will harm your system performance so much that you may not be able to judge the benefit of the choke.
Once you are used to the sound with the choke in place, try unplugging the Quiet Lines or R-C filters, one at a time, and listen carefully. If the capacitors are interacting with the choke, the sound will improve. However, I expect the resistors in series with the caps will keep this from happening, and that you will have added benefit from the choke and the R-C filters.
The choke resistance above the core's maximum frequency will be determined by the skin effect and the coil wire diameter. The DC resistance will be lower than the effective Ohmic resistance at the relevant noise frequencies.
What happens if short lead is hooked to hot & long lead to neutral..? I have my 193L in my DAC for almost a year & can't remeber which way I put it..? mmmgot me thinkin now..
Nothing...not a thing. I just prefer the longer lead for the hot...that's all.
I was hoping that was so,
Thanks.
Have you stepped up to the 193M yet? If not, you should check it out...excellent midrange detail and shading.
I was about to order the 193L when I read this post. Alan, do you men that 193M is better and a step up from 193L? Just want to know which is the better one before I place my order. Thanks again.
Yes the 193M is a step up from the 193L. They both sound the same, but the 193M is equaly to the performance of two 193L's...that's all. I use both models in my system. The 193L for outlet isolation, and a pair of 193M's for overall filtering.
No not yet, I will give it a try though. I think I will pull all my Auri's & give a listen.. I got em everywhere.
Yank away....the Auri's are killing the choke's sound quality.
Hi Al
Thanks for the helpful advice. Would it create a big sound degradation to use a hospital grade male AC plug, run two 14 gauge 3-conductor power cords into this one plug, then attach a separate contractor's grade female 3-slot AC plug to each of these cords at the other end and plug this into my single outlet, at least for starters, keeping the whole assembly to only a few inches in length?
Thanks so much,
Chris
This kind of thing is OK for experiments, but the extra contacts involved all degrade the performance for serious listening.It is likely that your single-outlet fixture is not very good for audio. The Japanese have been making a lot of progress recently in improving the USA-type outlets for audio. Even if you had to mount a box above the floor to accommodate a duplex outlet, it would be worth the inconvenience to get better outlet performance.
Start with the same experiment, and then move on to the other circuits on the same electrical phase.
Its easy...* If wiring the Hammond 193L choke to a three prong grounded plug:
Use a brass plug. Wire the choke's longest black lead to hot, shorter black lead to neutral and ground the choke using the metal casing to the AC male plug. Any 14ga. or larger three conductor AC rated cable will work. Try to keep the length of the cable as short as possible, like 3' or shorter. Plug the choke into the duplex. Wait at least 5 days to judge or critical listening.* If wiring directly to a duplex outlet:
Wire the choke's longest black lead to hot, shorter black lead to neutral and ground the choke using the metal casing to either the ground of the duplex outlet or to the main ground point (star ground) of the PLC, power strip, etc. WARNING: be sure to disconnect the power to the duplex outlet before working on it! AC is dangerous, make sure you know what you are doing before experimenting with AC devices.For grounding to the metal case: First sand with 220 grit or finer sand paper, then polish the metal casing with ProGold (100% preferred) and steel wool where the contact will be. I use a gold plated copper ring purchased from Osh Hardware to attach the ground wire to a bolt of the metal casing on the choke.
Hammond 193L chokes can be purchased at Parts Express. Cost is $35.67 each plus shipping.
Good luck, be safe and have fun.
Best Regards,
Cdc,
I didn't realize that the choke has one longer wire than the other until i read your comment here. I look at mine again and i see that. I thought it was designed that way, but didn't know that i have to connect the longer one to the hot terminal.I was wondering how you can identify which one is hot or neutral by looking at the male plug? I think i have to reterminate the choke if needed. Is this something to do with safety issue?
Neutral --> | | <-- HotO <--- ground
Usually the neutral blade is taller at the tip, look at your wall outlet and you will know what I mean.
thanks.I also look at the box of furutech receptacle...and i can't believe i don't pay much attention on this..:)
You are welcome. Be careful when experimenting with anything that has to do with AC. Even though AC connections seem very simple and straight forward to me, I have seen electricians burn themselves. I always check and double check what I do.Be safe and have fun...
Neutral --> | | <-- HotGround ---> O
Usually the neutral blade is taller at the tip, look at your wall outlet and you will know what I mean. The inside of the plug usually also designates N, L (meaning live or hot) and ground
Chris
Hi Chris
Thanks so much. So just to be sure I understand correctly, I just wire the choke to a three-pronged male AC plug as you describe and plug it into the outlet that feeds my line conditioner and stereo system, right? Since my system is plugged into a dedicated single outlet, should I just use a 3-plug adaptor to make 3 outlets from the single outlet and plug the choke into one and the system into another? Will the use of this adaptor degrade the sound in any way?
Thanks so much again
Chris
No the use of the adapter will not downgrade the sound quality of the choke. It might downgrade the connection pending the ac hardware you are currently using....by downgrade I don't mean it will be bad, it just might be different...the hardware we use makes up 75% of what we hear and see in a/v systems. But I think the benefits of the choke will far outweigh the hardware downgrade.
I am not sure I understand your question. If you have a dedicated line that leads to one duplex outlet, then yes, plug the choke into one receptical and your line conditioner to the other receptical of the same duplex outlet. Obviously if the duplex outlet is installed in the wall, this is the easiest way.If I read your questions correctly, you are asking if attaching a three into one plug expander will degrade your sound, yes most likely it will. I may have not explained clearly. The choke is wired to a three prong (hot, neutral and ground) plug. Plug this three prong plug into the same duplex outlet your line conditioner is plugged into. From my experience, which is limited at this point (I am still experimenting with alot of guidance as to what does what to what, etc.), line conditioners that use parallel filtering will effect the performance of the choke. I currently have four installed in my system, and eventually will have approx. nine total in my system. I am doing this one step at a time to see what is effecting what and how.
My system is a bit complicated, it is a full blown HT and music setup. I am also experimenting with other AC enhancements at the same time. What I can tell you is that these chokes are fanfrickingtastic for video. As for audio, you will (should: YMMV) hear a difference. If you are going to install one choke only, the way I mentioned above, you probably should buy the Hammond 193M choke instead. The 193M is a bigger choke and about $20 more. What I experienced was a more relaxed presentation with improved mid band frequencies being more realistic and natural. When plugged into the duplex where I have a Sunfire True Subwoofer Signature sub, the sub became much more musical, room node problems went away, and the sub is now a tad quicker. This is a quick sub to begin with. Your system will be different. Your AC conditions, gear, acoustic enviroment, cabling, your tastes, etc, etc. are different.
I started with one choke, then two, and now four. Your system may sound a bit lean for the first 5-7 days, that is why I said "Wait at least 5 days to judge or critical listening". As explained to me, your AC (gear really) is getting used to the choke. Just try one, the 193M and let me/us know your results.
Hi Chris
Unfortunately, the dedicated outlet I have is a single plug outlet mounted in the floor, so I cannot simply plug the choke into the second outlet, since there isn't one. This is why I was asking about the outlet expander (sorry, I'm not sure what the technical name for this is, but the thing that converts a single three-prong outlet into 3). In a case like this, what would be the best way to proceed? Since the outlet is in the floor, I'm guessing it won't be trivial to get to the wiring and wire the choke directly to the outlet, although perhaps I can access the outlet from the crawlspace...Is there a way to build a simple outlet expander using quality wire and plugs that could solve my problem?
Thnaks for any suggestions/help
Chris
Chris, Alan Maher is the man to ask. He is the Jedi Master when it comes to AC tweaking. Possibly other inmates can give you suggestions to extend your outlet to more then one. I personally would not go the multiple extender route unless I wanted a cheap and quick way to try the choke. If I had your setup I would either...1) Build a nice passive power strip
2) or add a nice duplex outlet run in parallel for your dedicated line single receptical. This way you, or I in this scenario would have more outlets.
N/A
One other question; does this type of installation make a big difference to the sound? What types of changes are there?
Thanks again
Chris
So far, i can tell that the soundstage is bigger and the high is cleaner, not edge like i used to hear. I guess it will take sometimes to tell if it makes huge difference or not.I assume if your line is really noisy , then you can hear the big difference. I plan to install two more chokes if i can hear more diff. in the next week. I also have quietline filter which is coming to my house next week too. And i like to experiment the mix between Quiteline and Hammond Choke.
Actually it has nothing to do with noise on the line...the a/c is nothing but 60Hz...harmonics are on the neutral due to power supply leakage...what you are hearing is the damping of the a/c wall outlet. The choke's effect is very local...it's only effecting the location it is plugged into...that is why I wire them into power cords...the choke reduces the ringing of the cable. It offers very little effect to other components one outlet over in the daisy chain...but when you reduce the ringing of one location it's amplified through out the rest of the circuit.
Thanks, Alan.Another question: Right now i plug the choke in the receptacle (regular one seen at Homedepot or Lowes) which is next to the one that my power conditioner connected to.
1> should i plug it directly to the outlet where my gears are for better effect? I thought as long as it's in the same circuit, it'll be ok.
2> Even though i carefully connect wire to the choke (heat shrink and electrical tape applied), I'm still reluctant to leave it on all the time. So, i unplug the choke when i leave for work in the morning and put it back an hour before listening. Would it be ok?
I now have 7 choke's in my system. 5 of them have been plugged in 24/7 for the last 2.5 years with zero problems. The other two are new, but I haven't had any problems. I have hundreds installed in my clients set up's also with zero problems. On a 120v 60Hz circuit the choke only draws 64mA's...that's nothing...it can handle up to 300mA...which is why the choke is ice cold to the touch.Yes same outlet as system is best.
Thanks, Alan.This is the best tweak i've ever done on my system. It sounds much better than i thought it would be.
Again, thanks for all your best suggestions.
Glad to hear it....enjoy :)
Hi Alan,The chokes are rated at a particular DC current because their inductance will be higher at lower currents and lower at higher currents. See the link.
The choke used as an AC filter will draw slightly less than 64 mA because it has no DC current. However, this does not affect its observed performance.
I expect you are getting improved performance from the 193M because of the higher Ohmic resistance of the winding. Two of them in series should work better.
Al
That is correct Al. I wasn't quoting the mA's specs as a reason why one filters better than the other...I just brought it up as a safety issue so folks understand the choke is safe to use on a 120v circuit. I can't tell you how many e-mails I have received in the last couple of days from people concerned about a/c usage.
Power cord for the choke??? No the insulation does nothing for the sound quality. Use a industral grade PVC power cord that you can pick up at your local Home Depot. 14ga x 3 is good....but 12ga x 3 is better.
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