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In Reply to: I don't think those guys are done fiddling with it posted by mattcecil1@yahoo.com on March 31, 2007 at 08:13:11:
They haven't even begun to evaluate a Bybee. I did everything that they have done, measurement wise, more than 10 years ago. Bybee even published an independent measurement of his earlier device (more than 10 years old) with impedance curves, and even a noise measurement. I have it in my files.
The RESISTOR is not the important part of the Bybee, but it has changed over the years. First, it was a .3 ohm non-inductive wirewound, often purchased surplus. I was there and helped pick out the resistors myself, on one occasion.
Later, a more custom resistor of about .025 ohms was made that is beyond anything that Dan Banquer can evaluate without a physics lab.
The latest models use an even more exotic resistor, that is beyond most of what is even believed to exist by many on this website.
Dan is going to get into BIG trouble, if he starts mouthing off, without really knowing what he is evaluating.
Follow Ups:
Maybe Bybees do work, but so do ferrite blocks for $4.
Why ruin your reputation over something so dubious?
Can't you understand why some people such as myself are offended by such "tweaks"? It's an insult (and immoral) plain and simple.
What message does such crap send to young music lovers/audiophiles?
I admit it. I don't get it.Tom
It all happened about 12 years ago. I was asked by my employer (Parasound) to evaluate the Bybee device.
In fact, I have a fax dated June 26, 1995 from Parasound that reads af follows:
'Dear John,
Enclosed is a prototype of the line conditioner from Jack Bybee. Richard (my boss) and Mike Klasko (Menlo Labs) visited his lab full of suspicion. After listening to a system with a conditioner for the preamplifier and power amplifier, both Richard and Mike claim that they heard a significant improvement.
Please evaluate this filter (without tearing into it) and see if you can verify that the improvement is quantifiable. Richard is showing an interest in marketing the unit only if there is a technical explanation for its performance. '
That is how we initially approach things. However, my measurements 12 years ago were virtually the same as what Dan measured.
I just about gave up, BUT THEN I LISTENED TO THE BYBEE DEVICE through my STAX Lambda headphone system driven directly by a Vendetta phono stage and my favorate Grateful Dead (Live Dead) vinyl record. Wow! There was a real difference.
This got me curious as to who Jack Bybee was, and what he was doing inside this block of 'cement' and the rest is history.
over the last 34 years I admit to being skeptical. Most of the money I spent yielded no audible improvements. That's true of my gear also. When you replace a $800 power amp with one costing $6200 you expect to hear an improvement. I did not hear a $5400 improvement. The difference was subtle and not noticeable on many recordings.
Like I said, maybe Bybees do work but the mystery surrounding the device and exactly what it is supposed to do does not help its being accepted.
At least one can try Bybees and return them if desired.
Why the hell is it that engineers find it so easy to dismiss things that aren't in their text books? If those things were 100% right, there would be no science left and no advancements. Dogma is dogma and is often wrong IMO.Glad you took the time to listen. It is pretty easy to tell the gear that gets listened to, and the gear that doesn't.
That is why I am somewhat more successful in designing audio equipment than some who don't trust their ears or the opinions of their associates.
That is why I am somewhat more successful in designing audio equipment than some who don't trust their ears or the opinions of their associates.
If people are to be expected to trust their ears, then what purpose does feeding them bullshit serve? If you have to feed them a bunch of bullshit, then you're clearly not expecting them to simply trust their ears. You're expecting them to trust the bullshit.
And if you're going to resort to feeding people bullshit, don't get your panties in a bunch when people point out the bullshit and call it what it is.
se
Steve, when have you given any really useful input here?
You just talk about things that you know nothing about or have not even tried. You condemn without examination. That's called prejudice.
Steve, when have you given any really useful input here?
You just talk about things that you know nothing about or have not even tried. You condemn without examination. That's called prejudice.
What I have done over the years is to question the claims made by Bybee. These have been legitimate questions. Questions any rational, thinking person might ask.
And over the years what have I ever got from you in response to those questions? Nothing but hand-waving and personal attacks.
So now when have YOU ever given any really useful input here?
Asking legitimate questions is a useful endeavor. What has been useful about your hand-waving and personal attacks?
se
Steve, you are lying about Jack Bybee in order to defame him on the other website. Jack does not say that he is using room temperature superconductors. He only says that SOME of the properties attributed to superconductors are used in his material. One of these is the formation of Cooper pairs to some degree.
Steve, you are lying about Jack Bybee in order to defame him on the other website. Jack does not say that he is using room temperature superconductors. He only says that SOME of the properties attributed to superconductors are used in his material. One of these is the formation of Cooper pairs to some degree.
How 'bout to no degree, John? He's invoked the BCS theory numerous times and claimed them to be "near-superconductive," when the things aren't even moderately conductive. The goddamn resistor in the thing is more conductive than his "near-superconductive" ceramic.
His invoking the BCS theory is a load of crap, John. Now go wax Jack's balls or something.
se
He stands on the decks of submarines as they descend to 10,000 feet!He risks prosecution from the DOJ by selling classified technology to audiophiles for peanuts!
He harnesses the power of quantum mechanics because, let's face it, Maxwell's equations just don't cut it at heroic operating frequencies like 20 kHz!
He is a martyr who makes daily sacrifices so that audiophiles can continue to pursue their dream of high-quality sound at low prices!
So the next time someone accuses Jack Bybee of being a fraud, a quack, a liar or a charlatan, instead ponder this question, "How come he doesn't get the Congressional Medal of Honor for his great sacrifices to audiophilia and indeed mankind in general"?
!
You've obviously never seen a pair of well waxed uh... huevos.
se
Superconductivity is usually a sudden onset sort of effect. However, Cooper pairs can and do exist below superconductivity. You have no idea what the ceramic material does over all frequencies, both very high and low. I don't have the equipment to measure it, and Dan doesn't even know where to look.
Superconductivity is usually a sudden onset sort of effect. However, Cooper pairs can and do exist below superconductivity.
I'd ask you to provide a source for that, but I know you can't but let's say that they do. So what? Whatever Cooper pairs may form isn't even sufficient to bring the conductivity of whatever ceramic it is to anywhere near the conductivity of even the resistor.
Even if we assume that the thing is fully superconductive and had no resistance at all, the best you could say about it is that it wouldn't produce any noise of its own. Their simply being Cooper pairs wouldn't remove any noise upstream from it, nor any noise downstream of it. It would simply pass the noise along without adding any more of its own.
But since it's not superconductive, and the ceramic isn't anywhere near as conductive as the resistor and its resistance is essentially that of the resistor, it will produce the noise of a 0.02 ohm resistor, plus the noise from the additional contacts and solder joints involved.
You have no idea what the ceramic material does over all frequencies, both very high and low.
No, I sure don't, John. So why don't you fill us all in on how Cooper pairs remove noise from upstream and downstream of the devices?
I don't have the equipment to measure it, and Dan doesn't even know where to look.
Even if you had the equipment I'd take any measurements of yours with a large grain of salt after your claim of having measured diodes in wires.
se
For the record, those who make the actual Bybee device, not Jack Bybee himself, told Jack to recommend to me a short article that appeared in 'Electronic Engineering Times' p. 40 Aug 14, 2006. The title is: 'Phonons may drive high-Tc superconduction'.A short excerpt: 'Phonons are vibrations in the crystalline lattice of a material that interact with electrons by enabling pairs to overcome their natural repulsion to enter a lower-energy state called a Cooper Pair After pairing, they weave through the lattice without any of the usual atomic collisions that cause resistance.'
Also, ' If the mechanism that enables high-temperature superconduction can be quantified, then designers worldwide could craft materials that eventually would enable room-temperature superconductivity.'
And finally: '...reveals that the mechanism causing high-temperature superconducting may be phonons after all. '
Well, I can't claim to completely understand it, or exactly how it relates to the Bybee device, but it sounds a lot like what Jack Bybee says about his device.
Don't worry Steve, I realize that you will never understand or believe it. It is just to far outside your 'box', but I do hope that others get the hint.
Don't worry Steve, I realize that you will never understand or believe it. It is just to far outside your 'box', but I do hope that others get the hint.
No, John. I understand it just fine and have no problem at all with the article. You're the one who's utterly without a clue here. So much so that it's just plain sad.
For the record, those who make the actual Bybee device, not Jack Bybee himself, told Jack to recommend to me a short article that appeared in 'Electronic Engineering Times' p. 40 Aug 14, 2006. The title is: 'Phonons may drive high-Tc superconduction'.A short excerpt: 'Phonons are vibrations in the crystalline lattice of a material that interact with electrons by enabling pairs to overcome their natural repulsion to enter a lower-energy state called a Cooper Pair After pairing, they weave through the lattice without any of the usual atomic collisions that cause resistance.'
Yes. This is from the BCS theory of superconductivity, which is 50 years old this year.
Also, ' If the mechanism that enables high-temperature superconduction can be quantified, then designers worldwide could craft materials that eventually would enable room-temperature superconductivity.'
Certainly.
And finally: '...reveals that the mechanism causing high-temperature superconducting may be phonons after all. '
Yes.
Basically what the article is saying is that while the BCS theory has held for Type I superconductors (such as certain pure metals), they hadn't been able to observe this mechanism as being the cause in Type II superconductors (the metallic oxide ceramics). So magnetic resonance was postulated as a theory to explain superconductivity in Type II superconductors.
The article states that in the previous month, research at Oak Ridge National Laboratory indicated that magnetic resonance was the more likely cause, but that that more recent research at Cornell indicated that the BCS theory may still hold.
Here's the article for those who would like to read the whole thing rather than your carefully selected quotes:
Phonons may drive high-Tc superconduction
Well, I can't claim to completely understand it, or exactly how it relates to the Bybee device, but it sounds a lot like what Jack Bybee says about his device.
DUH! Well of course it sounds a lot like what Jack Bybee says about the device. That's because Bybee has been using the BCS theory to "explain" his devices since day one. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR FIVE !@#$% YEARS, JOHN!
I've never had any issues with the BCS theory so don't give me this crap that I will never understand it or believe it because it's too far outside my "box." When you say shit like this it just demonstrates what an utterly clueless rube you truly are.
What I have had issues with is Bybee using the BCS theory to explain the device. Why? Because it's irrelevant.
I don't care what kind of ceramic Bybee has had cooked up for him. It's not superconductive at room temperature. It's not even "near-superconductive" at room temperature. Again, it's not even as conductive as the goddamn RESISTOR!
So while the BCS theory isn't bullshit, using it to explain how a device that's not even as conductive as a resistor is. But it's "good" bullshit in that the best bullshit exploits an element of truth, in this case the BCS theory. So that when people Google something like "Cooper pairs" they'll find something that's "real," instead of what they'd find if they Googled "pixie dust."
But this kind of bullshit relies on clueless rubes such as yourself who are so utterly devoid of any sort of critical thinking skills they'll never do any thinking beyond "Cooper pairs."
And that is why you are the one here who will "never understand."
se
Steve, what the article implies is that BCS theory might hold for high temperature Type 2 superconductors as well as type 1 superconductors that it already covers.
The direct connection with Bybee devices is just that he uses some material that apparently creates Cooper Pairs to some degree.
For some reason, you keep insisting that Coopers Pairs only are formed at very low temperatures, and when they do form at all, they make the material immediately superconductive. Then you go on to trash Jack Bybee, as you have for the past 7 years.
Here we go again!
Steve, what the article implies is that BCS theory might hold for high temperature Type 2 superconductors as well as type 1 superconductors that it already covers.
Uh, John, that's what I just said in my previous post. Did you not read what I wrote or do you have problems comprehending simple English?
The direct connection with Bybee devices is just that he uses some material that apparently creates Cooper Pairs to some degree.
But obviously not to any appreciable degree as again, the ceramic is not even as conductive as the resistor.
For some reason, you keep insisting that Coopers Pairs only are formed at very low temperatures, and when they do form at all, they make the material immediately superconductive.
Given the behavior of superconductors and the very rapid transition very near their critical temperature, this would seem to be the case.
Then you go on to trash Jack Bybee, as you have for the past 7 years.
Yes, because what you seem wholly incapable of undersanding here (and really, talking to you about this is literally like trying to talk to a five year old) is that even if we allow that there may be some tiny number of Cooper pairs involved in the conduction of the Bybees, that's not even enough to give the ceramic a conductivity equal to that of the resistor.
And even if we allowed that the ceramic in the Bybees was made from a room temperature superconductor and that all of the current flowing through it was by way of Cooper pairs, then the best you could say about that is that it wouldn't contribute any noise of its own.
Conduction via Cooper pairs wouldn't remove any noise produced upstream, nor would it prevent any noise being added downstream. Again, it would simply not produce any noise of its own. But in all these years you have demonstrated that you can't even grasp this very simple concept or apply any sort of critical thinking at all for that matter.
All you've been able to do is parrot what you've been told by Bybee while claiming that others don't understand anything.
se
"Dan is going to get into BIG trouble, if he starts mouthing off, without really knowing what he is evaluating."
Really; if you have any data, that relates to any electrical properties please feel free to either send me to a link or whatever.
For the time being, if it looks like duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, I'll assume it's a duck.
If the data is anything like your distortion data on wire, don't even bother to reply, and your word at this point is about as valid as an Intellichip.
Get real John;
d.b.
The latest models use an even more exotic resistor, that is beyond most of what is even believed to exist by many on this website.
You know, John, you must have a truly incredible pair of arms for them to have not worn out from all the hand-waving you've done over the years.
Ooooh. It's even more exotic. Beyond what most here would believe to exist.
Just what the hell does that mean, John? I'll tell you what it means, it means dick. It's just more of the same silly-ass hand-waving nonsense you've been engaging in for years now.
Exotic. That's right up there with "classified technology," "near-superconductive," and a whole host of other bullshit marketing buzzwords that have issued forth from you and Bybee.
Let us know when you can actually muster some substance, John.
se
You are very strange man. Sometimes you look to be decent technician and audiophile. But sometimes... Well, if we have discussion on Bybee you look full-length idiot. And I will explane why. You look as full-lenght idiot because you don't want to listen,listen,listen,listen,listen,listen... 1000 times listen.
Personally I put 2 sleapstrem Bybees in B+ supply line of my tubed pre and was floored by cleanising effect of devices. And I didn't suspect there was noise at all. So just try them and LISTEN. Or maybe you are deaf? It can be, I know of a lot of deaf audio designers and technicians in my country for example.Shalom.
You are very strange man. Sometimes you look to be decent technician and audiophile. But sometimes... Well, if we have discussion on Bybee you look full-length idiot. And I will explane why. You look as full-lenght idiot because you don't want to listen,listen,listen,listen,listen,listen... 1000 times listen.
What has listening to do with anything I've said beside absolutely nothing?
I could listen until the Green Party won the presidency and the hand-waving bullshit that's been spewed by Bybee and Curl wouldn't be any less hand-waving bullshit.
Personally I put 2 sleapstrem Bybees in B+ supply line of my tubed pre and was floored by cleanising effect of devices. And I didn't suspect there was noise at all.
Great. Glad you're happy.
Personally I prefer to not patronize those who blow smoke up my ass trying to sell me something.
Or maybe you are deaf? It can be, I know of a lot of deaf audio designers and technicians in my country for example.
Again, tell me what listening has to do with anything I've said.
se
mmhifi if your system has audible/objectionable noise, then your components are to blame. I have barely audible noise open input and with the attenuator at max. And I use tubes.
Buy quiet gear. The Bybees can't fix a gross noise problem, most of which is produced by the supply and is switching noise and its harmonics.
I agree completely, mmhifi. They have to listen, but they won't.
I agree completely, mmhifi. They have to listen, but they won't.
Tell me, John, how does listening change the bullshit claims?
If I tell you my cables are made of pixie dust, how would your listening to them change the fact that I'm just feeding you a load of bullshit? Are you claiming that your listening would somehow cause my cables to be made of pixie dust?
se
WOW!I'm new to this site, but had so much fun reading about this couldn't help but put my $0.02 in.
I've cut a few records in my life....some Gold, some Platinum, and NEVER heard of this device.
We used to use some vintage Neumann tube mikes, a decent console, Yamaha NS-10-M monitors, cut analog and digital, but never heard of this thing. Guess I'll have to look this up and see what all the hype is about.
In 1985 I modified a Sound Work Shop series 40, 56 input console and got it prety much flat from 35kHz down to 10Hz. Turns out the coupling caps were the sonic problem. Heck, the Op-amps are more than capable.
The sad thing was that when you took the output from the console to a power amp, then speakers (with cables), the whole thing went to slam.
So...If this thing is a super small value resistor, with some inductance, how does that improve the sonic quality of the amps and speaker cables. The cables, in and of themselves, are loaded down with resistance, capacitance, inductance....As Little Richard says in the GEICO ad...."Some body hep me".
The residual inductance is mostly in DB's test setup. Jack HATES inductance. Unfortunately, even a resistor has some inductance.
The guys who hate Jack Bybee are technicians who like to think of themselves as engineers, who don't understand physics, or even the implications of something made by physicists, except for what they learned in tech class. These guys are falling all over themselves and measuring the wrong mechanism. The resistor is only incidental to the actual working component. How many times do I have to say this!
Let's see. There's clearly a resistor *in* the signal path, as measured and as revealed when the extra casing is removed.So you say that's not "the mechanism". OK, what *is* the mechanism? Presumably something in whatever Mr. Bybee's little elves have put around the resistor.
So what causes what, by what principles? If this *is* physics, the answer should be clear and there should be peer-reviewed literature backing the mechanism up. "Physics" does not mean that you get to make things up.
I realize it's useless to press this as you've dug yourself in so deep, but trading on credentials is idiotic, and "implications of something designed by physicists" is a pretty good indication that smoke is being blown. In the absence of peer-reviewed publication and clear explanation, I have to conclude that when you people say "quantum" you mean "double-secret woo." One is reminded of an infamous piece of plastic with alleged but undetectable "quantum dots" a couple years ago.
CD, you have no idea what you are talking about. Many new phenomena are classified or at least considered confidential information.
When did you first hear about the Stealth fighter or bomber? In a peer reviewed paper?
Did you know that the semiconductor diode was classified info in WW2? The Germans would have loved to get a peer reviewed paper on it, back then. Their radar would have improved immediately, perhaps to the level that the British had already.
New concepts are trickle-downed from the establishments who first developed them, without necessarily first having them peer reviewed by someone.
Oh I get it, the Bybee units are going to be airdropped onto terrorist strongholds, where they will examine them, go into endless debate on the audio properties, and wind up forgetting about their AK 47's, and RPG's.
BRILLIANT!
Sounds like another classic case of "my job is so secret not even I know what it is"
d.b.
Hi Dan
I'm assuming your talking about http://www.rpginc.com/or did you mean Role Playing Games? if so the JC's definatley got you playing in the sandpit with the arch-demon of his netherworld Mr Eddy.
Sorry
I just could resist it
nt
Keep up the good work Dan.
Some people think that's my style of doing things; I say it's a definitive lack of style:)
d.b.
Pretty sad that when someone questions a ridiculously priced cable or some crazy tweak the person is nearly crucified. And the person is only a tech and not an electrical engineer or physicist or rocket scientist! So what?
Where is the FTC when cable and accessory companies make outrageous claims in their print ads? If a drug company or car company or any company other than an audio accessory company made such wild claims, they'd be slapped with a huge fine.
The whole audio industry is a joke if supposedly educated people can defend these claims. No wonder youngsters have no interest in audio equipment to enjoy their music on. They don't want to be brainwashed by the lunatics in this mad industry.
Hi Nightdog I agree and picking up another point you made"And the person is only a tech and not an electrical engineer"Is just a personal insult to anyone with an electrical engineering background with an enquiring mind.
The Oxford Engish dictonary defines an engineer as:
A person skilled in the design and use of engines or machines in any of branch of engineering.
A person with a higher qualification in any given subject, does not have the right to denigrate anyone else in that subject matter only a responsibility to educate them.
In fact such insults actually says more about the insulter than the insulted could ever say back to them.Hence I'm not in the least surprised Dan is more than a bit pissed off.
chris
"The whole audio industry is a joke if supposedly educated people can defend these claims. No wonder youngsters have no interest in audio equipment to enjoy their music on. They don't want to be brainwashed by the lunatics in this mad industry."
I agree 100%.
d.b.
So I take it Mr. Bybee is exercising the most stringent controls to make sure that his little thingyrooers don't fall into the hands of our enemies. Otherwise it's pretty much curtains for the Free World.
You never know!
The resistor is only incidental to the actual working component. How many times do I have to say this!
As if you have any idea.
You denegrate others claiming they don't understand physics, yet you yourself have yet to demonstrate that you even have any understanding of physics beyond someone who paid half attention in high school. Because of this you have never been able to speak to the argument or to answer legitimate questions. Instead you resort to hand-waving and personal attacks.
You can only blindly defend Bybee by parroting what you've been spoon-fed by him and have no clue whatsoever whether what you're defending is even defensible.
Think about that before you go talking about what others understand and what they don't.
se
As a matter of curiosity, why is the resistor being "upgraded" if it isn't important?Thanks, Rick
The resistor is as important as, let's say, the exhaust system in your car. It is somewhat important, but it doesn't power the car. Improvements can be noted, however.
z
Yeah huh?
How fascetious of you!
s
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