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4.178.186.115
-That cables are NOT make or break in a system.
-That speakers are a huge factor.
-Spending money on differant amps & building amps is much smarter than buying spendy cables
- Learning to build my own speakers & tube amps pays big returns
-short & simple signal paths allways win..
- I hate op-amps
-did I say I hate op-amps..
-the cable gig got me a bunch of times.No more..stupid & stupid.. refering to myself.
_ most analog stages in digital gear sucks
-Open baffle rules...cheap & very effective
Does not cost divorce type money to get very high quality sonics, just time & study on how to spend & applicate the $ wisely..
-Finally don't buy into all the commercial BS that dominates todays world in high end audio...they had it correct long ago..IMHO
Follow Ups:
If you like what you got stick with it... Did someone say flow?Jeff
Right on with the cables/wires, and really world changing if all audio money spenders catch on to the truth of Open Baffle.
First, let me allow that there are perceptible differences (and audio is all about perception -- listening to music.) Of course, some things measure different. And some things sound different. Even an amateur can tell two disparate type of speakers apart.Ahhhh, but when we enter the rarefied atmosphere of differences among pres, amps, or especially the usuall suspects for audio-fools: cables! Come, give me a f#####g break! Differences between common wiring and ultra-high end stuff??? Where are the double blind tests? oooh, that is a fightin' word here??? Isn't a lot of this hobby just a matter of pride..."Mine's bigger." "Mine's more expensive"? Of course it is.
It's very humbling to admit that 90% of what you think makes a differences is unpeceptible. Enjoy the hobby, your expensive toys, etc., but admit that a lot (most, probably) of the perceived differences are purely imaginary and won't stand up to even mildly rigorous testing.
You are wright 100%.Milos
2. What amazes me today becomes usual next week.
3. Better is enemy of good.
4. Capacitors are bad.
5. Pentodes and transistors are not necessarily bad.
6. Exotic tubes aren't worth their price.
7. There are very few good tweeters.
8. Undistorted bass is the hardest thing to achieve.
n/t
I have XM on right now and it is just awful. Who invented this anyhow? What were they thinking? I'd rather listen to AM radio. FM by contrast is still truly Hi-fi.
....I have Serius satellite radio on my Dish Network and every channel, all ~25 of them, sound like garbage!I can only listen for about 45 minutes due to the compression being so bad that any "character" the song had has been smooshed to a monotonous drone.
This format is truly catering to the "aural wallpaper" crowd.
Cheers,
~kenster
I agree with what you say, particularly on the build your own.A few others:
No one part upgrade will bring a "night and day" difference to your system, but the sum of the upgrades can, or they can cancel each other out.Bad circuits sound bad, good circuits sound good if implemented properly.
If you are listening for an audio effect to prove to yourself or others that what you did is right, you aren't listening to the music, so it can't be right.
CD was not implemented properly, 16/44.1 was just barely enough to cover the audible spectrum. But we can still sense the higher frequencies, especially when they're missing. A spec that allows for expansion would have kept CD alive forever, well maybe not. But we'd at least have 24/96 on current releases. Imagine running DOS with a 640kb limit on an Intel Core 2 Duo. That's a lot of wasted available bandwidth. That's where we are with CD.
Some designs last forever, others are obsolete in a year or two or five. Just look at your HT receiver vs. your tube amp.
Some of the best tweaks are free. My CD player is damped with a floor tile, my phono preamp is damped with a plastic refrigerator magnet clip.
(nt)
after the speakers; and unfortunately Room Acoustic Treatment is the must under rated issue as well. Just trying a few Acoustic Panels we realize the real and audible improvement they make in our sound. Best, Antonio Machado.
You might as well randomly choose among most speakers. A few sound superior and even fewer have some innovations.Vibrations in all electronic screw up the magic that you would otherwise get.
AC power even from the better companies is awful for your system. Spending money on improving it pays more than investing better components.
It is clear that basic design principles cannot lead to a best interconnect. Some have gone beyond these principles or even contrary to them merely listening to their creations and bested the field.
Most equipment can be modified to great advantage. Most mods will result in your losing money on reselling them.
On listening to any system, there will be disagreement about its quality. Everyone listens for different things.
Most of us, if not all of us, have listening rooms that spoil our sound.
The magic of realism or close to realism in audio reproduction is very fragile. Multi-channel is not the path to this realism.
The best vinyl reproduction far surpasses the best digital reproduction.
Record and cd cleaning can greatly improve their sound. It is too expensive mainly in labor for companies to do this nor would all be willing to pay for it.
a
people always want to upgrade amps , cd players , speakers etc when they have'nt got the room right yet . If ya have decent equipment and the room is right then start tweaking the equipment you have out . If you aren't happy still , then analyze what you don't like about the sound , then maybe upgrade a piece of gear to fix what you don't like . More often than not someone will rush right and buy something unsuitable for their system that a reviewer has said something good about only to wonder why it don't sounds lousy in their system . Have a plan 1st , BEFORE you buy .
Joe
The room itself may be the most important component of all... I've experimented extensively, slowly adding "best of class" acoustics products to rooms, and some of the most impressive, fulfilling changes in the system have come about when a critical parameter of the room, such as a particulary bothersome pair of corners, has been adjusted to perform well... it has often sounded like the old system was removed and fully replaced with never generation components... before you spend another dime on amorphous palladium/carbon fiber/bubinga wood anything get the freakin' room at least halfway right... I've heard multi-$100,000 systems that sounded like hammered *mierda* , installed and set up by "professionals"..... sheeeeeesh.
on most all you have learned Especially the OpAmp bit.
Wally Jung be damned.
So what.. if 'some' crappy op amp sounds slightly better than another? None at all IMO ..or more likely a simple enough circuit designed with out these gizmos.. sounds far far better, every time.
DIY speakers though can be iffy.. real secret is the quality of the drivers themselves.
Seriously, the LM4562 (dual) changed my opinion of opamps which all sounded mediocre to me. This one removes a couple veils. Its not a subtle difference at all. The single version (LME49710) is sampling now and I have some on the way. The specs look as good and I expect it to sound as good as the LM4562. Digikey stocks surface mount and dip versions.I now consider all audio gear using op amps in production now to be obsolete because they are not using these amazing parts. I hope manufacturers give these op amps a listen and switch to using them ASAP! If not, their competitors who do will have a great advantage. Cost shouldn't be a factor at high-end prices, these parts are under $3 in quantity!
I'm updating my "obsolete" CD/DVD players and surround sound decoder with these parts...
Can you tell me how many I would need to replace and is it a direct replacement in a Shanling CDT200A CDP?I'm not a tech so simplistic instructions for a layperson;-)
Thanks
Mark,Have you compared this "best" op-amp output stage to any of the output stages not based on op-amps?
Mike
....I used to work in the National Semiconductor plant that produced these chips/op-amps.I was an Ion Implant technician that ran the Ion particle accelerators used to dope the substrates and subsequent layers of the op-amp chips and can attest to the stringent quality control of said chips.
Just a nostalic trip down memory lane :-)
Cheers,
~kenster
Can I assume you have tried all the other usual op amp replacements that have been floating about the past few years?
No, I've probably only tried 10 of the top ones from a few years ago. There are so many op amps on the market and their specs. look impressive, but the LM4562 really sounds great too. That's the surprise in a sea of choices where trying yet another op amp results in only minor differences. That's how I can get excited about this one, its just much more transparent and right sounding like a magical tube amp.National must have realized they had a winner because they make it in a DIP, not just surface mount like most all new op amps. There's a market to upgrade older gear, and one to expand with a part so good. Really, the improvement is worth the trouble. Even surface mount for a lazy guy like me!
I'm just suggesting that op amp haters and the merely dissatisfied give these a listen. I find the sound improvement very satisfying for $10 (samples from national) or larger quantities from digikey. They make a whole lot more difference than 10x-100x more costly tweaks like feet, power cords, and interconnect.
If you think an op amp can't be great for $4, buy the $17 metal can package to feel like its more valuable. Tell yourself/us it rejects RF noise and sounds so much better. I'm lazy, though, and might still just stick with direct replacements. It would be a marketing angle for new equipment mfrs to get more cachet by using an exotic sealed package to overcome the op amp stigma. Others may just use plastic versions to get better sound and have an advantage over competitors.
The LM4562 may not be the last word in op amps. Analog Devices has the AD8599 with a noise spec to rival a single transistor, let alone an amp circuit! Unfortunately, its been in "pre-release" for a very long time. Samples aren't available and who knows if/when it will ever reach production. For now, I think the LM4562 is the best available dual and capable of changing opinions on op amps.
Oh, and finally, no amp sounds better than any amp, discrete or not.
I am convinced so many get bogged down on nonsense like cables, caps, and resistors because they lack the ability to build from scratch. One you start building from scratch you quickly see how bad most stuff is and that the raw parts are not as important as the recipe.
Russ
Everything is something.
The electricity in your mains is what reaches the speakers.
Don't worry, enjoy the music.
...........and the Outlets/connectors/cables that distribute that power has a PROFOUND effect on a systems resolution capabilities.Having been a convert to the benefits of Balanced power many years ago, I am a recent convert to AC outlet/connector quality and it's positive effect on the ones system/music.
Can't discount room acoustic treatment either as proper room acoustic treatment/application will free ones system from the deleterious effects of the room which are more pronounced than people realize until they witness a properly treated room.
Looking back on all my years in this hobby, I should have started with the above mentioned disciplines before hopping on the upgrade merry-go-round :-)
Cheers,~kenster
... The finest and the most expensive (often not the same ; ) amps, speakers, source and wires will mean little if they don't 'flow' together well and the sonic mix that comes out the end of the pipe provides a high level of enjoyment for the listener. Much more an art than a science.Also the reason why price is a marginal determinent in the true 'value' of a piece of audio gear.
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