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I am looking at making a switch to tubes, and will need to do amp plus speakers as a combo. I have shortlisted to listen to some Silverline Sonatinas and Triangle Zays speakers, but am wondering if I would get a better combo by going Single Ended amp plus cheaper speakers, or getting something like Rogue M120's and looking at less efficient, but maybe better quality/full range speakers.
By the way, how would M120's compare with a good single ended amp?
Follow Ups:
I'm very happy with my Sonatinas and Moth s45 SET amp (1.8wpc with globes). I previously used another wonderful amp, the pp VAC pa 35/35 (32wpc). It used EL34 in triode, and I had very good tubes. Before that I used a GTA SE40 (40wpc). Lets discount the GTA. Comparing the VAC to the Moth - PP vs SET - paired with the Sonatinas was a revelation. For me (and I've felt this way for some time) the amp is what MAKES the system (least MY system). I've heard other speakers with the Moth (Adhire HE10.1) and could easily live with them, but could not go back to pp. Furthermore, my amp is switchable from 2a3 to 45 operation. My remarks apply ONLY to the 45 tube (ST or globe). With the 2a3 (RCA bi-plate or Sovtek) it is not nearly as open, detailed, relaxed or engaging. I found the bass with the 45s, especially the ST's, to be much better; articulate and propulsive. I wrestled at lenght with the possibility of my Sonatinas mating with such a low-powered amp but in the end that was a non-issue. At least in my room (27x18x9) with my music (simple acoustic/vocal/jazz) and volume levels (55> 85db). I've managed 93db peaks, though I found that with the SET I listen to lower levels. And not because I must, instead the music is now presented with such a low noise-floor and with greater micro-dynamics that volume is not required to achieve satisfaction. YMMV and all that yuk, yuk. BOTTOM LINE: The Sonatinas can be magical with a decent (not expensive) 45-based amp. I can recommend that grouping or something similiar. Get a 45 amp and THEN look for speakers you can live with. That's my story and I'm sticking with it. Yes, yes I'm looking into replacing the Sonatinas with a horn or single-driver speaker but that says more about exploring unchartered territory than a degree of displeasure I have with my system. Just tonight I dropped in another rectifier ('56 RCA 5as4) and said, "Why am I thinking of giving this up?"
I'm on the side of thinking the speaker is the most important. Once you find a speaker that has the type of sound your looking for, get it, then upgrade components when you can.I own a pair of Rogue Audio m-120's "magnum version'. I would only get the magnum version, if you compare you'll easily see why. I also use a pretty inefficient speaker...Magnepan 1.6's, but can still acheive the higher volume levels w/out a problem. The Rogue 99 "magnum" is a truly great preamp IMO. Coupled w/ the amps, my maggies and my digital gear (Marantz as a transport w/ a Musical Fidelity A3.24 DAC) has given me many great listening sessions. The Maggies and the Rogue preamp would probably be the last I'd get rid of or upgrade from if I had the $.
My advise would be to go for the speakers you like the most, then build your system around 'em.
Just my 2 pennies worth,
I've got three different pairs of speakers at home......nht super ones (bookshelf), Klipsch KG4.5 (2-way horn) and Reference 3A MM de Capos (2way crossoverless monitor) I've hooked all of them up to my Art Audio Jota (20w set) and they all sound really good. Granted, each speaker sounds very different, but they are all enjoyable to listen to. I'd recommend deciding on a quality amp and spending the bucks there. The speaker definitely decides the presentation of the music, but saying it's the most important component is ludicrous.
I believe this mentality only serves the company's that make big buck speakers.....My opinion, of course.Don't believe the SET generalizations......my 20w set could drive Dunlavy SC-IV/a's quite well, not ear splitting levels...but quite well. Problem is, the impedance dips low in the bass, so it was tough to play them as loud as I liked (note my moniker...high db)
I sold the duns, and am happier with the 3A's, at 1/4th the price and size! SET's just require carefull matching with speakers.
My amps out of your $ range I bet, but there's many an amp out there to try. If you like POWER and getting slammed by sound waves in your listening room, don't get a low watt SET, get the rogue or something like it, otherwise you won't be happy, unless your speakers are 100+db.
my 2 cents.....highdb
If you want a fuller, bigger, more realistic sound, then you should get the Rogue with a full range speaker that makes you happy. SET amps can sound lush and inviting, but the good ones are VERY expensive, and still generally lack much power. The Rogue is a fine, all-around amp with good drive capability on high and medium efficiency speakers. Also, with the Rogue you have the option to run ultralinear or triode (not SET but close). Also, I must add that I'm 180 degrees in the opposite direction with the couple other posters below. A top notch speaker with average electronics (as long as properly matched to the speaker load) will generally sound more accurate then top notch electonics and average speakers. If the speaker doesn't sound that great to begin with, then there's not a whole lot you can do to bandade the sound even with superior electronics.
Regards, Jerry O.
avoid the slow, soft bass, rolled-off top and lush colorations. There are quite a few designs that reflect this more modern approach to provide the purity of SET and the power of push-pull.
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Jim Ricketts
tmh audio
We'd all buy them and the discussions would be over.
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Jim Ricketts
tmh audio
A good SET should do what any "good" component does, i.e. transparency, neutrality, musicality. I only know the Decware stuff but it is certainly not at all boomy or syrupy. But you pay for the watts (though a little can go a long way sometimes.)
I thought the original Sonatinas were too bright and too incoherent; big suckout in the midbass, etched treble but beautiful midrange. I suspect a good SET to slightly roll-off the treble and plump up the midbass might have been a great match; romanticize it a bit.At any rate, Jim is preaching the gospel. An unassuming pair of speakers can sound great with quality electronics but never the inverse. My 17 yr. old KEF monitors aren't the living end. I'm shopping for a new mains pair and moving them to the bedroom/office. They only represent about 1/14th of the system cost, though, and sound unbelievably good with my gear.
the amp is more critical than the speakers. ie, a great amp and good speakers will outperform a good amp and great speakers. At least that is/was Ivor T's thoughts with the turntable being the most important.
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Jim Ricketts
tmh audio
I don't fully agree with the Linn model. It has some merit, but is not always the case.We see many times in the audio mags what reviewers might assemble for a given price range. Of course depending on the reviewer, the components would be different. But the best one I ever read was a system at the 5K price point. This was many years ago, but the reviewers choice was a pair of Quad ESL63 coupled with a cheapy receiver and turntable.
I laughed quite a bit on that one because I completely agreed. That system, in all likelihood would blow away any system that Linn could possibly assemble. Not that better electronics and frontend would not improve things greatly. The point of the reviewers comments, and I must agree, is that the speaker has the largest impact on system quality, etc. The finest frontend and electronics coupled with a small box speaker(like what Linn was selling in the day) in no way could compete, IMO with the Quad ESL system as mapped out by the reviewer.
Ivors comments do have merit, but this line of thinking was basically but together in the late 70s early 80s as a way to better market the superiority of the LP12.
My priority would be speakers first. They have the largest bang for the buck, followed by the fronted and then the electronics. Audio is not photography and that is the model Linn would use. Just ain't the same thing. But it sure worked as an effective marketing tool for Linn. One must also remember that this is the same group that states cleaning records is bad, let your stylus do that job, and using sandpaper to clean your stylus is good.
Yes, I completely agree with you!
I have found decent improvements by upgrading speakers, but more rewarding and long lasting improvements after amps/preamps. Garbage in garbage out.......is very true. Focusing on upstream/front end pays off.
What it your total budget? BTW, Mick Malone of Supratek in Oz make some fine SET's.
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