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In Reply to: Foreplay fans and detractors, $1500 preamp fans, A question to you all! posted by mg1.6 on July 31, 2002 at 10:38:44:
Sony CDP (model not worth mentioning)-->Why should you bother upgrading anything after the source if you have a low opinion of your source component? Save your money and be happy. Otherwise, try to find a source component you are happy with before you try to band-aid it with another component.
Follow Ups:
Luxman DZ-111-114 circa 1990 were excellent and go dirt cheap. Garbage in = amplified garbage out.
Charles
Sorry, Tom.As my pockets are not as deep as yours, I must take the upgrade path one step at a time.
If my dream CDP does not have a digital volume control (as my current Sony), then, without a pre-amp, it will be imposible for me to listen to any music at all (perhaps, if I follow your advice, you will let me borrow one of your preamps) ;D
As my pockets are not as deep as yoursWhat do my pockets have to do with anything? Do you know that you currently have more money in your system than I currently do in mine?
I must take the upgrade path one step at a time.
What makes you think you "must" do anything?
Let's break it down:
1) You don't talk about your source component in a positive light.
2) Everything in your system after your source component tries to reproduce what source component puts out.
3) If you're not happy with your source component, then changing something downstream of the source component will not fix the problem created by the source component.
4) Finding a source component that you are happy with may obviate the desire for any upgrades or additional equipment (like a preamp) downstream of the source.
Tom §.
TomMy remark "not worth mentioning" not necessarily means unhappy.
As you know, Sony changes product designation every 3 months (or so it seems, except off course, the SCD-1), and keeping track of all this models, particularly when they are 4+ years old is impossible (I bet nobody will recognize whatever letters and numbers my CDP was designated at that time). Finally, this statement was intended to add I pinch of humor to my question and make it more enjoyable to read.
Also, you failed to address my last statement regarding digital volume control or lack of, and the need for a preamp. (you don’t have to, I already appreciate your opinion on this)
There is also the issue of adding a tube component to the chain, which many maggie owners seem to like.
Finally, without putting words in your mouth, my conclusion from your post is:
You advice me to relinquish adding a preamp at all, and invest the total amount of $ on the best CDP with digital volume control I can find, and connect it directly to the power-amp.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think your advice is reasonable. Any particular recommendations?
If I had to use the maggies I'd just sell the bryston amp and get a jolida integrated hybrid or try to find a used integrated all tube PP amp. I'd pocket the difference in cost between the jolida/used amp and the bryston.That's my preference though and it's probably a long shot that it would fit in with your preferences and value system. I'm just trying to point out that adding in another component to the chain or spending more money may not be the most effective route to go in order to increase your enjoyment of music through your system.
I've heard the Jolida Hybrids and I think he'd be better going with a preamp and the Bryston. The Bryston as a power amps kicks the snot out of the Jolida power amp section of a hybrid. I like Jolida, The 202a is a great value product. I'd go with ASL though as they seem to be built better and 4 more years on the warranty and copst about the same price(well within $70.00). Plus the Maggies suck power from what I understand so Bryston is a logical choice from a bang for buck perspective. Occasionally, Bryston can sound a little analytical or bright depending on the speakers...using a tube preamp seems to be a very logical choice to take down the gleam on the high frequencies while still maintaning the speed and bass control over the bottom end.If one buys the right preamp, this could be an exceptionally good set-up.
Dump the Sony, look at Arcam, Rega planet etc...or perhaps buy a DAC down the road. CD players offer may subtle differences...and those will likely derive largely from the DAC. Cambridge Audio's DACMAGIC is fairly inexpensive and should be a fair improvement over the SONY's This would leave you a good chunk for a preamp.
I have no experience with Bryston, but I did switch the integrated amp in my home system from a B&K 140 (excellent bang-4-$ SS at a budget price) to a Jolida 302B (integrated tube amp - EL-34's - used samples can be found for $600-750 in great shape). This made a HUGE difference in my enjoyment of the music, so much so that I did the same thing in my work system going from SS to tubes (different components there to fill a bigger space with sound). I would definitely reccommend the Jolida 302B as an outstanding buy in an integrated tube amp. I couldn't believe how much 'more' music there was to be heard on those recordings I was so familiar with, and how engaging my system could be. In turn, I also did some tweaking and changes to the source components in both systems. In the home system I added a Monarchy DIP along with a CAL Alpha DAC using my Marantz CD63SE as a transport. I can hook up the line out separate from the digital out on the player and switch back and forth between the CD63SE output, and the Monarchy/CAL output. Yes indeed, I can hear a difference, and improvements on many levels with the DAC output (though when I think about the ridiculously low price of the Marantz I am still amazed at how good that player is). Still, the differences, though certainly worth the cost of the DAC/DIP, in this case were NOT as profound as going from SS to tubes, both in my home system and my work system. In the work system I purchased a Rega Planet 2000 to replace my Denon carousel there. Again, I can switch back and forth and appreciate that improvement as well (big improvement in that case), but, again, the difference was NOT as profound for me as the switch from SS to tubes.Take this experience with a 5-lb bag of salt, as it is completely isolated to the specific components I am dealing with, my own listening rooms, and my own preferences. I've always been taught the same hierarchy of audio components as being professed in other responses to this thread: The source component is the most critical, and the best anything connected to it can do is interpret the information it is passing on. I'd have to agree in principal with that, yet experience tells me that possibilites for improvements exist in every link of the chain, and any one of those improvements may have a profound effect on your enjoyment of the music......or not!! For me the change from a cold, analytical, albeit clean and powerful sound of SS, over to the warmth and musicality of tubes was a profound change for the better for me. It was a change in the way the entire system sounded, while swapping the source gave me more detail and a wider deeper soundstage, but did not appreciably change the sound of the music as going to tubes did. Which is more important to you is a question you may want to ask yourself when considering a change. I don't think there is any clear-cut answer that anyone else can give you. Forgive me if I am using simplistic terms to describe the experience, but I'm not up on all the jargon for this stuff - I love the music and I'd rather forget the gear behind it when I'm listening. Anyway, just one more opinion.
I have no problems with what you've said but just remember he was going to go with a Jolida Hybrid amp which has a SS power amp stage. I'm assuming he's talking about the 1501A or maybe the 1501 RC which is a good unit but not the last word in tube sound.Going all tube might work but he needs a lot of power for the Maggies...even tube power.
Yes, I did notice that. That's one of the reason's I chimed in. Though I have no experience with the Jolida tube bybrids, the reviews I've read indicate their all-tube integrated may be a better choice. It certainly is an excellent choice in my experience! That is not to say a hybrid approach is a poor choice. I love my ARC LS-2B pre-amp in my work system. Now there is an excellent application of hybrid design.I used to have a smaller set of maggies that I drove with the B&K and was never really satisfied with the sound, so I can relate to the SS + electrostatic combination the poster is referring to (though, as I pointed out in my earlier post, I can only speculate as his components, listening room and listening tastes are likely quite different than mine). I've heard a set of Martin Logan electrostatics bi-amped with all SS gear (Krell), and the sound was utterly amazing. That was the first time I knew what it meant to actually have the hair on the back of your neck stand up. I think the synergy between individual components is part of the illusive magic we all seek here. Again, I don't think there are any clear-cut answers. It is, in large part, an individual thing, and the best we can do is listen ourselves, and learn from what others have to say taking the latter with a grain of salt.
Best,
> Plus the Maggies suck power from what I understand so Bryston is a logical choice <That is SO not true. Although I wouldn't recommend a Jolida hybrid, perhaps the 801 would do the trick. It has plenty of power, and I would take it over a Bryston any day. And I don't think adding a tube preamp in front of the Bryston is going to make a proverbial silk purse out a sow's ear. The last thing you want with maggies is something over analytical. Tubes are a perfect match with them.
may be right...I've never heard the Magnepans. But, it would seem I'm getting very conflicting comments from owners...one who owns these very speakers was claiming 300Watts is optimal and would not dare go less than a 100.Of course I've heard the same about the B&W 801 and yet the best set-up I've heard them with had an 11 Watt Nu Vista Tube amp. Well it sounded the best, but could not play very loud.
My guess is the 502B would have more than enough power to drive virtually anything.
BTW, Bryston does not ALWAYS sound overanalytical...they CAN sound like that with some set-ups. Being a revealing amp is not a sin. If the speaker tends to be bright then adding a Bryston is not likely to create a synergistic sound. If you have a speaker that is at all undisciplined or a bit sloppy, the Bryston can put verve back into the sound. They have a deadly low noise floor and create a tone of air around instruments...that the 202a has none of. The 202a had a more lush sound with the CDM 1NTs, but not nearly as revealing, detailed or as well soundstaged. It depends what you're after and with what speakers you're going to use and even the type of music you're going to listen to.
There are some terrific sounding solid state amplifiers(The YBA Integre DT for one) and bad sounding ones(Insert Japanese amp here)...unfortunately most people think Receivers when they think solid state. And if Tubes were perfect they would only have one design for the tube sound.
I used a jolida 302B with a pair of MMG's for quite awhile. I even cut the power output of the jolida in half by converting the output tubes to triode mode. Not once did I have a "gee, I need more power" moment of thought.Then again, my listening levels are in the mid to upper 80db range so what works for me may not work for others.
The extra money put towards a CD player designed to drive a power amp directly might very well be your best option. Of course a volume control of some sort is needed but don't overlook the importance of impedence matching as that is one of the more important reasons for a preamp.
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