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Current set-up:
Sony CDP (model not worth mentioning)-->Bryston 4B-ST---->1.6QRSo, I'm thinking on adding a pre-amp.
Matching my investment so far ($1385 new Bryston, $1600 new maggies), I should aim at adding a $1000-1500 pre-amp (probably tube, although there are great reviews of the BP-25 out there)
I assume, most people with a similar set-up, will have the same budgetary goals as me.
Then, how come so many people settle for the Foreplay?, with all the hassles of building it yourself (risk of electrocution :)(just kidding), the low price ($300 with all the mods + $ instruments needed to build it), and considering that it is the UGLIEST pre-amp out there!
Is it really that good, that aesthetics will not be an issue. Does it really beat all the $1500 pre-amps out there. Is this so good to be true. (Hey, I'll love to keep $1200 in my pocket, and actually building one should be fun)
Follow Ups:
I happen to love the retro look of the Foreplay.Don't forget, there are plenty of ways for you to mod its appearance.
1) Impedence matching between CD and amp is important and most consumer CD's don't cut it and their volume controls drop music info. The right CD player designed to properly drive a power amp is an excellent solution to your problem.2) If you decide that you do want a preamp for whatever reason consider buying used like a Conrad Johson PV10, ARC, or look at some of the DIY ones like the Grounded Grid. The Foreplay is great for the money but I think you want something a bit higher up the ladder but I may be wrong.
3) Listen to what folks are saying and consider their motives. Nobody is here is going to get $$$ from you based on your choice. There is a big reason why so many are trying to convince you to consider a new CD and a tube integrated amp. It is because we have learned after spending lots of time and money that it is the cheapest way to end up with an enjoyable system.
4) Your maggie's might like lots of watts but they don't need it. Big watts help mostly with the bass end and lets face it, the maggies aren't that strong in the bass. Not that I am saying they are bad at bass just that the upper mid range is where they leave a lot of other speakers in the dust.
5) So keep an open mind and don't think people are knocking your choices. We are trying to help and strong opinions abound. Think about where you want to be in the future. Both the Bryston and the maggies are great products. But they may be a bit much of the same thing, especially with a CD source.
6) Hard as it may be to believe now, chances are strong that you too, down the road, will end up with a tube amp and a record player. Give thought to that when you consider what to buy now.
7) Last but not least, why are you thinking of getting a preamp now? Is there something about your present system that displeases you? The more info we get in that direction the better our feedback to you can be.
You are bringing up good pointsAlthough I'm very happy with the sound, I believe it leans toward the bright side. Comparing different set-ups at different stores, I have found an all Audio Research Tube set-up with B&W to be to mellow, and an SS (don't remember the name) set up with Martin Logans to be too bright. Guess what, I would like something in between.
That’s why I'm leaning towards tubes somewhere in the pathway. I don't mind spending $$ in a Rouge 66 for example instead of the Foreplay, if in the end I'm going to be happier. (If they are about the same, then Foreplay wins).
Although my main source is CD, I would like the flexibility of being able to connect a different source (also, will help me do A/B comparisons between CDPs when the time comes :)
Yes, regardless of what I do, I will eventually upgrade my source (the upgrade bug is hard to fight, particularly when reading the AA) just though it made more sense to continue my current path (have upgraded in the past year in the following order (Speakers---> Power Amp----> plan on upgrading preamp (I had an Adcom(lesser model), but having a problem on Left channel (music comes and goes?)-----> CDP last)
Yes, I must say that there are loads of sweet-sounding preamps out there, both SolidState and tubes.Yes, there are tonnes of preamps that can provide better imaging, faster sound, thicker basslines, leaner highs, sounds that make your speaker "disappear".... and so on.
If that is what pleases you then you should by all means pursue that direction. Afterall, audio as a hobby is 99% subjectively opinionated and ultimately it has to satisfy our needs no matter how they may sound to the others.
Yes, Foreplay has it's attractive factors: reasonably priced and fairly easy to build.With "tried and true" designs, easily obtainable tubes and good signal source to feed the unit, the sonic/cost ratio is very high indeed (which leads to a group of dedicated Bottlehead fan going gaga over it...). What's more? Many folks use FP as a stepping stone to pursue better sound from swapping in boutique parts to adding CCS to god-knows-what.
Yes, I must say that FP is not a "be all" and "end all" kind of preamp. It may not be able to make your bass-bins sink like a submarine, or make your tweeters "tweet" like some preamps do. With it's sonically-neutral(fairly neutral) character, it gives me and many others that "ahhh...." feeling when, after a full day's work, I can simply seat back and immerge myself into the music. It has the kind of ease that makes Ella Fitzgerald or Patricia Barbour comes closer to you, instead of you constantly fiddling around just to get closer to "them".
Speaking from my personal experiences I have been playing/modding preamps for some years, both tubes and SolidState inclusive. While there are other preamps out there that will excel the FP in certain categories such as imaging and better control or so. But to me what really keeps me coming back to my FP is that once I turn on my FP and my "Buddified" Loftin-White 2A3 SE amp and set the volume level properly, I can just sit and listen all day. To me, music coming through FP is like, how should I describe it, like you melted into a cocoon of music....sweet music! Everything there sounds right to my ears, no strain, no fuzz, just music.
Here's my suggestions to you:
Try to audition all the factory built preamps available out there that is within your budget. Prepare to spend some time on each of them and listen to them the best that you can before drawing some sonic conclusions (get a small notebook and write them down).
Next, go find a Bottlehead fellas( you an go look for one on Bottlehead BBS) w/ FP and listen to it. Better yet: see if he/she is willing to loan it to you for a few days. Again, listen to it just like you would with all other preamps.
At the end, draw your own conclusions and pursue the one that not only sounds good to you but also within your budget.
Remember: audio is all about the pleasures in music reproduction. If certain preamps sounds good to your ears, go for it!
Just my 2 cent's worth. YMMV.
Quest ;^>
*been staying on with my FP for 5 years and still content with it*
Get a Foreplay with the parts for the following mods: Anticipation, Sweet Whispers or upgraded volume pots, Auricap output caps, shunt pot mod. Then get a Sony SCD CE775 SACD player for under $200. Listen for awhile then get the SACD player modded. You'll never look back.
Bob
None of the previous posters have mentioned an important consideration. The digital volume control built in to your Sony CDP discards information when the signal is attenuated. Therefore, you do need a preamp!You run a CDP as your only source. You need only attenuation and impedance matching. Take a look at the DECWARE ZSLA-1 tube buffered level control. The ZSLA-1 seems to be ideal for your application. It has no gain, a single I/P, controls the listening level, and matches impedances. The $379 price includes interconnect cables. If the exposed transformer bothers you, order the Signature version for an extra $350. The Signature version includes a cover for the transformer and a nice Goldpoint stepped attenuator. $729 is about 1/2 of your budget. That leaves the other 1/2 to go towards a new CDP or your savings account. BTW, the "standard" $379 version comes with a money back trial period; your risk is limited to shipping charges.
FWIW, purchasing a Rotel RCD-971, a good sounding CDP, would leave some change from the 2nd $750. Save the $750 and add a little to it and you are in GOOD sounding CDP territory.
Eli D.
Or, for just over $1,000.00, he could buy a new AVA fet-valve pre-amp! ; ) (Always good advice!)
> > Or, for just over $1,000.00, he could buy a new AVA fet-valve pre-amp! < <Tell me about it! If I wasn't flat broke, my FET-Valve probably would have already been upgraded to Transcendance 7 status.
Eli D.
A 25 watt soldering iron and some solder $15
A metal project box they have which is a black steel (very important)"U" and a silver "U",
throw away the silver'$8
4 female RCA jacks-$10
Package of "hook-up wire"- $5
100k alps volume pot-$10drill holes on the back of the box for the RCA's and screw them down tight. drill a hole in the front for the volume pot. connect the right and left channel hot and grounds to the RCA's(the guy behind the counter can tell you which goes where,)and ground the pot to any of the RCA's.
Now you have a $48 passive pre-amp.
Get Audio Advisor, J&R, Oade Bros and anyone else you can think of to send you CD players on 30 day approval.
You'll probably love one and decide that passive is the way to go.Spend all the remaining budget on that CDP.
'
Now save up another $300 for a Foreplay with Sweet Whispers and 3.3 Auricaps and be prepared to be astounded!
gettting a $500-1000 CD player (maybe one with a tubed output) then adding a quality passive preamp between that and your power amp. Maybe a transformer attenuator type, though I think you'd have to DIY.Forget about the CD players with the volume controls because those usually use the cheapest possible parts to add that feature.
Or the foreplay or similar tube pre may be worthwhile. Who cares what it costs. But it won't fix an outright poor source.
Don't get me wrong. I didn't think it was bad. I just didn't think it was much better than the Adcom preamp I was using. I also would need a separate phono stage which would add considerable $$ to the cost. Also it was not as "user friendly" as the Adcom which was important to me as my girlfriend has to operate it. It also lacked tape loops. So for me it wasn't that great pricewise nor sonically.I have since moved to vintage tube stuff and feel that better value can be had in that route. I also found that for me a tube amp with a SS preamp sounded better than a tube preamp with a SS amp. Of course YMMV and it all depends on equipment.
I had another interesting experience recently. I was at a friends house who buys/sells lots of stereo eqipment. We both have a love for vintage Marantz SS equipment and have both recently decided to go the tube route. So as we were listening to an old Sherwood amp that he had just restored and remarking on how much less fatiguing the tube stuff was we decided to fire up this Marantz collection that he was putting together for a collector. Marantz 250 power amp and matching 3800??preamp played through JBL 100's. We were both floored at how much brighter and more detailed the tube stuff, after proper restoring, was. The SS Marantz was warmer sounding. However we both knew from prior experience that one can listen to tubes for hours on end but eventually that Marantz SS sound starts to grind on you. And that I think is the big difference. Personally I find records and CD's to be about the same. No way I can enjoy listening to a SS amp and CD's for as long as I can a decent tube and turntable setup. But again this is just me and you may feel very differently. No doubt fine enjoyable SS amps and CD players are out there. But not at the same price level as far as I am concerned. This is not intended to knock anyone's choice in equipment nor claim that any particular technology is "better".
I enjoy and prefer tube preamps, amps and tuners over SS. -BUT- I do enjoy some SS stuff too. I have a Marantz 2230 (soon a 2270 and 18) stacked with my tube equipment. Some days I change around connections. One day a SS pre and tube amp, tube pre and SS amp. Each has its own sound and I enjoy them all. The Marantz is a wonderful unit, warm vintage and even has a bite of a tube sound too. Some days I just have the marantz going and turn off the tubes completely. This way the music never gets stale and I appreciate even more the sound of tube equipment.
Charles
Sony CDP (model not worth mentioning)-->Why should you bother upgrading anything after the source if you have a low opinion of your source component? Save your money and be happy. Otherwise, try to find a source component you are happy with before you try to band-aid it with another component.
Luxman DZ-111-114 circa 1990 were excellent and go dirt cheap. Garbage in = amplified garbage out.
Charles
Sorry, Tom.As my pockets are not as deep as yours, I must take the upgrade path one step at a time.
If my dream CDP does not have a digital volume control (as my current Sony), then, without a pre-amp, it will be imposible for me to listen to any music at all (perhaps, if I follow your advice, you will let me borrow one of your preamps) ;D
As my pockets are not as deep as yoursWhat do my pockets have to do with anything? Do you know that you currently have more money in your system than I currently do in mine?
I must take the upgrade path one step at a time.
What makes you think you "must" do anything?
Let's break it down:
1) You don't talk about your source component in a positive light.
2) Everything in your system after your source component tries to reproduce what source component puts out.
3) If you're not happy with your source component, then changing something downstream of the source component will not fix the problem created by the source component.
4) Finding a source component that you are happy with may obviate the desire for any upgrades or additional equipment (like a preamp) downstream of the source.
Tom §.
TomMy remark "not worth mentioning" not necessarily means unhappy.
As you know, Sony changes product designation every 3 months (or so it seems, except off course, the SCD-1), and keeping track of all this models, particularly when they are 4+ years old is impossible (I bet nobody will recognize whatever letters and numbers my CDP was designated at that time). Finally, this statement was intended to add I pinch of humor to my question and make it more enjoyable to read.
Also, you failed to address my last statement regarding digital volume control or lack of, and the need for a preamp. (you don’t have to, I already appreciate your opinion on this)
There is also the issue of adding a tube component to the chain, which many maggie owners seem to like.
Finally, without putting words in your mouth, my conclusion from your post is:
You advice me to relinquish adding a preamp at all, and invest the total amount of $ on the best CDP with digital volume control I can find, and connect it directly to the power-amp.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think your advice is reasonable. Any particular recommendations?
If I had to use the maggies I'd just sell the bryston amp and get a jolida integrated hybrid or try to find a used integrated all tube PP amp. I'd pocket the difference in cost between the jolida/used amp and the bryston.That's my preference though and it's probably a long shot that it would fit in with your preferences and value system. I'm just trying to point out that adding in another component to the chain or spending more money may not be the most effective route to go in order to increase your enjoyment of music through your system.
I've heard the Jolida Hybrids and I think he'd be better going with a preamp and the Bryston. The Bryston as a power amps kicks the snot out of the Jolida power amp section of a hybrid. I like Jolida, The 202a is a great value product. I'd go with ASL though as they seem to be built better and 4 more years on the warranty and copst about the same price(well within $70.00). Plus the Maggies suck power from what I understand so Bryston is a logical choice from a bang for buck perspective. Occasionally, Bryston can sound a little analytical or bright depending on the speakers...using a tube preamp seems to be a very logical choice to take down the gleam on the high frequencies while still maintaning the speed and bass control over the bottom end.If one buys the right preamp, this could be an exceptionally good set-up.
Dump the Sony, look at Arcam, Rega planet etc...or perhaps buy a DAC down the road. CD players offer may subtle differences...and those will likely derive largely from the DAC. Cambridge Audio's DACMAGIC is fairly inexpensive and should be a fair improvement over the SONY's This would leave you a good chunk for a preamp.
I have no experience with Bryston, but I did switch the integrated amp in my home system from a B&K 140 (excellent bang-4-$ SS at a budget price) to a Jolida 302B (integrated tube amp - EL-34's - used samples can be found for $600-750 in great shape). This made a HUGE difference in my enjoyment of the music, so much so that I did the same thing in my work system going from SS to tubes (different components there to fill a bigger space with sound). I would definitely reccommend the Jolida 302B as an outstanding buy in an integrated tube amp. I couldn't believe how much 'more' music there was to be heard on those recordings I was so familiar with, and how engaging my system could be. In turn, I also did some tweaking and changes to the source components in both systems. In the home system I added a Monarchy DIP along with a CAL Alpha DAC using my Marantz CD63SE as a transport. I can hook up the line out separate from the digital out on the player and switch back and forth between the CD63SE output, and the Monarchy/CAL output. Yes indeed, I can hear a difference, and improvements on many levels with the DAC output (though when I think about the ridiculously low price of the Marantz I am still amazed at how good that player is). Still, the differences, though certainly worth the cost of the DAC/DIP, in this case were NOT as profound as going from SS to tubes, both in my home system and my work system. In the work system I purchased a Rega Planet 2000 to replace my Denon carousel there. Again, I can switch back and forth and appreciate that improvement as well (big improvement in that case), but, again, the difference was NOT as profound for me as the switch from SS to tubes.Take this experience with a 5-lb bag of salt, as it is completely isolated to the specific components I am dealing with, my own listening rooms, and my own preferences. I've always been taught the same hierarchy of audio components as being professed in other responses to this thread: The source component is the most critical, and the best anything connected to it can do is interpret the information it is passing on. I'd have to agree in principal with that, yet experience tells me that possibilites for improvements exist in every link of the chain, and any one of those improvements may have a profound effect on your enjoyment of the music......or not!! For me the change from a cold, analytical, albeit clean and powerful sound of SS, over to the warmth and musicality of tubes was a profound change for the better for me. It was a change in the way the entire system sounded, while swapping the source gave me more detail and a wider deeper soundstage, but did not appreciably change the sound of the music as going to tubes did. Which is more important to you is a question you may want to ask yourself when considering a change. I don't think there is any clear-cut answer that anyone else can give you. Forgive me if I am using simplistic terms to describe the experience, but I'm not up on all the jargon for this stuff - I love the music and I'd rather forget the gear behind it when I'm listening. Anyway, just one more opinion.
I have no problems with what you've said but just remember he was going to go with a Jolida Hybrid amp which has a SS power amp stage. I'm assuming he's talking about the 1501A or maybe the 1501 RC which is a good unit but not the last word in tube sound.Going all tube might work but he needs a lot of power for the Maggies...even tube power.
Yes, I did notice that. That's one of the reason's I chimed in. Though I have no experience with the Jolida tube bybrids, the reviews I've read indicate their all-tube integrated may be a better choice. It certainly is an excellent choice in my experience! That is not to say a hybrid approach is a poor choice. I love my ARC LS-2B pre-amp in my work system. Now there is an excellent application of hybrid design.I used to have a smaller set of maggies that I drove with the B&K and was never really satisfied with the sound, so I can relate to the SS + electrostatic combination the poster is referring to (though, as I pointed out in my earlier post, I can only speculate as his components, listening room and listening tastes are likely quite different than mine). I've heard a set of Martin Logan electrostatics bi-amped with all SS gear (Krell), and the sound was utterly amazing. That was the first time I knew what it meant to actually have the hair on the back of your neck stand up. I think the synergy between individual components is part of the illusive magic we all seek here. Again, I don't think there are any clear-cut answers. It is, in large part, an individual thing, and the best we can do is listen ourselves, and learn from what others have to say taking the latter with a grain of salt.
Best,
> Plus the Maggies suck power from what I understand so Bryston is a logical choice <That is SO not true. Although I wouldn't recommend a Jolida hybrid, perhaps the 801 would do the trick. It has plenty of power, and I would take it over a Bryston any day. And I don't think adding a tube preamp in front of the Bryston is going to make a proverbial silk purse out a sow's ear. The last thing you want with maggies is something over analytical. Tubes are a perfect match with them.
may be right...I've never heard the Magnepans. But, it would seem I'm getting very conflicting comments from owners...one who owns these very speakers was claiming 300Watts is optimal and would not dare go less than a 100.Of course I've heard the same about the B&W 801 and yet the best set-up I've heard them with had an 11 Watt Nu Vista Tube amp. Well it sounded the best, but could not play very loud.
My guess is the 502B would have more than enough power to drive virtually anything.
BTW, Bryston does not ALWAYS sound overanalytical...they CAN sound like that with some set-ups. Being a revealing amp is not a sin. If the speaker tends to be bright then adding a Bryston is not likely to create a synergistic sound. If you have a speaker that is at all undisciplined or a bit sloppy, the Bryston can put verve back into the sound. They have a deadly low noise floor and create a tone of air around instruments...that the 202a has none of. The 202a had a more lush sound with the CDM 1NTs, but not nearly as revealing, detailed or as well soundstaged. It depends what you're after and with what speakers you're going to use and even the type of music you're going to listen to.
There are some terrific sounding solid state amplifiers(The YBA Integre DT for one) and bad sounding ones(Insert Japanese amp here)...unfortunately most people think Receivers when they think solid state. And if Tubes were perfect they would only have one design for the tube sound.
I used a jolida 302B with a pair of MMG's for quite awhile. I even cut the power output of the jolida in half by converting the output tubes to triode mode. Not once did I have a "gee, I need more power" moment of thought.Then again, my listening levels are in the mid to upper 80db range so what works for me may not work for others.
The extra money put towards a CD player designed to drive a power amp directly might very well be your best option. Of course a volume control of some sort is needed but don't overlook the importance of impedence matching as that is one of the more important reasons for a preamp.
you said:
Hey, I'll love to keep $1200 in my pocket, and actually building one should be fun)Doesn't that answer your question?
The Foreplay sounds great, AND it is fun to build....what do you have to loose? If you are about to spend 2K on a preamp then $150 (start with the base model and go from there) is a drop in the bucket.
And there a plenty of postings on the bottlehead forum of folks who have used different enclosures if you dont like the look.
Yes, you are correct.But, I have seen, lightly used, fresh tube preamp models with MSRP=$1500 sell in the used market for $600-800. And that makes the difference less significant. (except the risk of buying used).
There is my dilema.
I appreciate your input, and expect several different points of view in this issue to be posted (I hope), to help me in my desicion.
mg1.6: What I hear Tom saying is there are better ways to spend your money. I agree. If you have $1300 dollars available, spending $300 on a Foreplay and $1,000 on a CDP should result in a much greater sonic upgrade than spending most or all on just the Pre. If you later decide to move up on the Pre, I doubt you will have any trouble selling it for what you have in it. I don't own the Foreplay, but the reports form the members indicate you can't go wrong at that price. Just my opinion...YMMV...Bill
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