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In Reply to: Why can't anyone make a VT-231 any more? posted by Frihed89 on April 24, 2007 at 12:53:36:
cathode chemistry would be a good guess - not to mention the metallurgy and rigid QC requirements. The reason NOS tubes usually sound so good is that back when they were made - they were THE electronics that were used for Television, Defense, computers, etc. Obviously this is going to have an impact on quality when we're talking about mass production.The majority of modern audio tubes are geared for the guitar market and that drives quality more than anything else. There have been a number of new production tubes that have really surprised me - the SED 6L6GC and 6550C... the Shuguang 12AX7C... the 6N1P... the Sovtek 12AX7LPS... etc.
Follow Ups:
I totally agree, they don't make-em like they used to. Especially with some of the ridiculous prices asked on KR, JJ and Sofia DHT triodes. Even in 1960's dollars they are a bit steep.
While the "majority" of current production may be oriented toward guitar amps - not perzactly sure but not worth debating - the 6SN7 types aren't. The 6SN7 was not commonly used in guitar amps even when it's use was popular in other audio, radio, and TVs. The 6SL7, and to some extent, the 6SC7 were common in guitar amps until miniatures eclipsed them.
So, with 6SN7 current production being HiFi oriented, the lack of a current production tube - that seems acceptable to the "inmates" here - does seem peculiar. After all, several manufacturers are making 300Bs, and the various "KT's" with none of the 300Bs and few of the "KTs" being used in guitar amps!Rob
True - the 6SN7 is hi-fi marketed... and so is the 300B - but the 300B variants have 'boutique' prices - a good markup. I wonder what people would be willing to pay for a 'boutique' 6SN7? Seeing the prices for NOS/used good 6SN7s on Ebay I'm surprised no manufacturer has jumped into it.The EH is certainly not a bad tube - it worked fine in a cathode follower position in a DIY preamp I made - but there are certainly some other brands I prefer.
NOS VT-231s sell for $500-$100 a pair, depending on the model and the seller. Good used ones are less. So, this is the initial marginal cost to shoot for, but if the market becomes competitive more firms will enter if they can produce these for less, but the demand also might increase, pushing prices back up.
May I remind you good sir, Mr. Frihed, that VT-231 is invariably a moniker given to 6SN7s by the military. They are generally speaking not different than the same civilian brand of that period. For a very good essay on this see Tubesellers link quoting our own tube asylum.
The truly ruggedized tubes are designated with a "W" and as in JAN CHS 6SN7WGT later versions had designations like WGTA etc. I am sure Len could shed some light on all this.
It does appear truly insane that such a well liked tube has so few current production choices. Can you imagine, the migration by manufacturers and consumers to a new production clone of a true round plate 6SN7 that sounded decent.
IMHO the Sino and EH tubes lack the fuller sound and richer tone of the most readibly available inexpensive old production 6SN7s.
Why don't you and I quit our day jobs, round up a couple million and start making these babies!
Why can't somebody make 6SN7s like they did in the early 1940s?And no one here has really got a good answer.
I am sure it's got something to do with economics, but what is it about the 6SN7 of that era that makes people NOT produce good copies?
5751s are another in this category, aren't they?
Honestly when I see the same rare tubes come to market in bunches it is then that I suspect counterfiets or a stash was found and sold I am not expert enough to say. Some are simply too much of a pain in the a** to trouble with imitating. Rebranding is quicker and easier but the pros seem to catch them. With 6SN7s so many, as the late Carl Sagen would say, "billions and billions", were made, that there really isn't a pressing demand on the tube making industry to retool. Nor to make them well and have custom alloys or to try and reverse engineer the skills needed to justify the expense. It must have been some wierd press that welded round plates, possibly by a guy doing one plate at a time all day.
To Tom waits the investment may be only "small change". Whilst a fellow named Floyd says its "Money Money".
If I were to model this mathematically it would be a non linear algebraic proof ending up with an entropic fractal. But I'll leave that for you to figure out.
Is Electro-Harmonix 6SN7EH considered the best current production?
...but it IS odd and unfortunate that nobody is making a better one than the EH now. For example, if JJ (no relation to me btw) would make a 6SN7 as good as most of their other recent efforts, I would gladly buy a pair. Even just putting their excellent ECC99 internals in an octal bottle would be useful (though the plate resistance would be about three times lower than the 6SN7 spec, closer to a 6BL7.)
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