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In Reply to: Current 6sn7 posted by DP5908 on April 23, 2007 at 18:33:21:
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Long Live Dr.Gizmo
Follow Ups:
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Long Live Dr.Gizmo
Do you know that to be a fact or are you just speculating?If you are stating this as fact please share with me the source of that information.
No, I have not sent samples out to metallurgists for testing. I am, however, vaguely aware of how Mr. Matthews of New Sensor fame conducts business. He is the same fella that purchased the Svetlana name to re-brand his Sovtec tubes. The Tung-Sols are more than likely produced on the same lines by the same people using different shapes of the same materials, albeit with a different brand. Brand is hugely powerful, even in vacuum tubes. His Tung-Sol 6550 are made to appear like old Tung-Sols not to be like old Tung-Sols. That is pretty much my sense with the 6SN7.Can you hear vastly improved sonics over the EH 6SN7? I can not.
If you have information to the contrary, I am all ears.
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Long Live Dr.Gizmo
So in other words, it's just your speculation.I have not heard the Tung-Sol reissue 6SN7, so I can't compare. I can say that I think many (not all, many) of the people who knock the 6SN7 EH have never heard it.
RCA made a lot of different tubes on the same production line using similar materials and even near identical construction - does that inherently make them inferior?
So Mike Matthews bought some names when they came on the market. It's not like the tube business has been run by saints for all these years. Read about the history of the tube makers (Saga of the Vacuum Tube is a terrific book!) and tell me things weren't worse then. I wish he'd used other names too, but that doesn't mean the tubes aren't VERY good.
The New Sensor produced tubes branded Svetlana are not just rebranded Sovtek (not Sovtec).
Over on the Tube DIY board you'll find a lot of posts by Eric Kingsbury (a.k.a. "Poindexter" or "Poinz") who says the Tung-Sol reissue 6V6 is the finest he's ever heard, and that's why he uses them in his all hand built Music Machine amps.
Oh, one last thing - that Matthews fella is the ONLY reliable source of many tubes we'd be hard pressed to do without. Do you know Mike's history? Do you know how he was harassed and even physically beaten up years ago while trying to keep his operation going in the face of let's just say "outside influences"? No he's no saint - but we'd be in BIG trouble without him and his company.
And they turn out some really good stuff too.
I never mentioned the absolute level of build or sound quality in any of these posts. I like the EH tubes and yes the EH 6V6 is a very good tube. I like the EH 6SN7. I am just hard pressed to hear much of a difference between them and the new pretty Tung-Sol equivalent. I did not call your girlfriend ugly, I just said that she was not any prettier than your last girlfriend.I am very glad you like these tubes. I am sorry that Russia is such an awful place to do business. If you look around the US can be a pretty rough market as well. Tubes are produced in these "third world" countries because we have the EPA and actually pay salaries. Why do you think that Westrex needs to charge as much as they do for the WE Branded 300b.
Personally, I just take offense to purchasing great old brand names and applying them to modern production which shares nothing with the past. Kind of like a two stroke Indian motorcycle or a Fisher home entertainment center. And I am sorry; your argument on how Matthews used the Svetlana brand on the Sovtek (thank you for the correction) tubes did not increase the value of that brand. EH has a respectable brand and I believe that this kind of activity cheapens it.
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Long Live Dr.Gizmo
Just a bit more to say and I'm done..."Um, when did I knock EH tubes?"
You didn't directly knock EH, and I didn't say that you did.
"I am sorry that Russia is such an awful place to do business."
Mike's assault occurred HERE, in the USA - not in Russia. He was forced into bankruptcy HERE by thugs, not in Russia.
"Tubes are produced in these "third world" countries because we have the EPA and actually pay salaries."
True, wage costs are lower.
"Why do you think that Westrex needs to charge as much as they do for the WE Branded 300b."
Because it's a boutique piece with a high markup, and a low production volume. The low volume drives the cost way up.
"And I am sorry; your argument on how Matthews used the Svetlana brand on the Sovtek (thank you for the correction) tubes did not increase the value of that brand"
Paraphrasing your words - when did I say it increased the value? All I said was they weren't just rebranded Sovteks.
Whether you like them or don't like them, whether you like Mike Matthews' businesss plan or not, etc. is all tangental to the discussion. The bottom line for me is this - your earlier post clearly inferred that the Tung-Sol tube line was just relabeled "prettied up" tubes. I did not wish to let that stand unchallenged unless you had specific information to support it.
Since I use and like the EH 6V6 but have been told by some that the new Tung Sol is a better sounding tube....what is your opinion Jim and how would you compare the sound of the two?The Tung Sol is a good bit more (percentage wise).
I like the EH el34 as well (guess I am a treble freak) but I will say the construction of the SED looks better/more rugged.
Russ
Russ,I like the EH too! The only real concern I have is the screen durability in some of the more demanding musical instrument amps.
I think the T-S has somewhat better frequency balance. And I like the tougher screens.
Same can be said for the 6V6. The EH and Tung-Sol are comparable. I would not say I have a preference for one over the other.
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Long Live Dr.Gizmo
You make some good points Jim. I think the tube market looks pretty healthy right now. Competition has raised the quality too. Look at the better quality of tubes made in China. They were pretty bad a few years back.
I've always enjoyed both solid state and tubes. There are good and bad examples of each. When I threw in the towel and said goodbye to tubes ten years ago, it was because the tubes were very shaky and there were not high quality alternatives in my mind. You can only take so much and you had to be brave to stick it out 10-20 years ago.
I got back into listening through tubes a few months back for the third time and I'm enjoying music more than ever now. There are many good tubes available now and the prices are fair. I happen to believe that tubes are underpriced currently, across the board, but I'm not complaining!
doggy
"...it was because the tubes were very shaky and there were not high quality alternatives in my mind."It seems odd to say that there were no high quality alternatives to shaky modern production tubes 10 or 20 years ago - I mean the good NOS tubes were more plentiful and MUCH cheaper 10 or 20 years ago, so I'm thinking that there were all kinds of alternatives available.
That was my perception at the time. It was bad enough that I wanted to get away from tube gear completely. At the time I had a ARC D75 (still have), a Dynaco PAS4, a Luxman CL35/III, a Dynaco tubed cd player (can't remember the model now), a Dynaco SCA35, a Jolida 302 and a VTL ST80.
I had a lot of tube failures and it drove me crazy. At the time I had over 100 nos tubes (mostly small signal), 55 of which were Telefunken 12AX7s, purchased for $5.00 each from the Grass Instrument Co. in Braintree, MA. No problems with those, however.
Fifteen years later, I have had four failures since I changed over to tubes in my most listened to of three systems. They were a Tesla E34L (purchased mid-late nineties, supplied by Quicksilver), a Sovtek EL34G (purchased approx. mid nineties, all 4 crackle and pop), a JJ KT77 (supplied by Rogue) and a 12AX7 (supplied by Quicksilver).
I picked up most of my NOS from old, dilapidated TV repair shops and the like in the early '90s. Some came from purchases through AudioMart, Some through Andy Bowman (at the time, just a local character that had great tube hunting skills).Yes, old stock was more available then but a person had to be "in the know" to be looking for (foraging really) and finding the good stuff.
These are the best of times IMHO. There are cheap, reliable tubes that don't blow up in your amp from Russia and China these days. Adjusted for inflation, these new production tubes are cheaper than the drugstore variety that one purchased for the color telly in the late 60's!
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Al G
Born To Tinker!
Al,Price aside, do you think the new production tubes sound as good as the NOS tubes?
The SED 6L6GC is a great tube in my Heathkit W-5M amps, as is the Valve Art KT66.The Sovtek 12AX7LPS stands right up with the best. The Chinese Shugaung 12AX7-C is good too.
This info has been repeated by at least 4 posters in the last week on this board. Their experience backs up the way I feel in my personal experience.
Just the fact that you can buy a new production 5AR4 rectifier that will work in a ST-70 is a vast improvement from the early '90s Chinese imports (much less the staggering variety of EL34's that are available today).
HTH
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Al G
Born To Tinker!
Any opinions on current 6sn7's?
NT = No Text to be found here.
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Al G
Born To Tinker!
"You make some good points Jim. I think the tube market looks pretty healthy right now. Competition has raised the quality too. Look at the better quality of tubes made in China. They were pretty bad a few years back."That's a great example too, they went from worthless junk to excellent quality.
I'm curious as to what New Sensor's plans are for products labelled Sovtek, Svetlana, E-H, Tung-Sol and Mullard. For example I have Sovtek 6L6WXT+ and E-H 6L6EH tubes that appear identical, weld for weld. Maybe they have different grids and cathodes that cannot be seen and maybe they differ electrically. The dealer told me they are different, but I have my doubts. The 6L6EH was about $10 more.
The New Sensor web site has no information or specs. or anything useful.
I find it hard to believe that New Sensor will want to manufacture six different 12AX7s and four different KT88s in their plant, etc., like they seem to be doing now.
"For example I have Sovtek 6L6WXT+ and E-H 6L6EH tubes that appear identical, weld for weld. Maybe they have different grids and cathodes that cannot be seen and maybe they differ electrically."You can't go by looks alone. A 12AU7 RCA looks just like a 12AX7 RCA. Which looks just like an RCA 6EU7. RFT 12AX7, 12AT7, and 12AU7 all use the same plate, they look identical. Late production Sylvania/Philips 7581A, 6L6GC, and 6L6WGB all use the same plate structure. 6GU7 RCAs and 12BH7 RCAs look identical. There's many more examples.
Materials used, spacing, cathode chemistry, there's lots of variables you can't see with the naked eye.
What is it about gaps in the "knowledge base" (human capital) and/or current production technology that can't produce 6SN7s that recreate the sound of the old Tung Sol, NU, KenRad, Sylvania, RCA, Raytheon, etc VT-231s? Why is this is so hard?This is a real question!
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