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OK, basically I see a handful of very affordable tube integrateds out there there that get some pretty good reviews. Only problem, my room is huge and really need to run a sub. Is there an ACCEPTABLE way (i.e. not a huge compromise) to get a line level out of an integrated amp that has only speaker outs, keeping in mind that those same speaker outs will have to drive my mains?Thanks
Follow Ups:
Most integrateds have a jumper between the preamp section output and the input for the main amp. Remove the jumper and replace with a Y for each channel. Run your sub off the tails of the Ys (don't try to combine them, BTW) with ICs into the line level inputs of your sub. This WILL let the volume control and other controls operate on the sub.
Sure, most integrated amps have line level tape outputs that were there to feed the signal to a tape recorder. Just connect from there to the line level inputs on the powered sub. The only drawback is that these outputs are not affected by the volume control on the amp so you will have to adjust the volume of the sub separately. If that's a problem, most subs have a speaker level input also. Or, I suppose, you could rewire the preamp section so that these outputs are controlled by the volume knob. Just how large is your room? Which amps are you considering? You may be able to do without a sub depending on the combination of amp and speaker you use. I'd recommend trying it without the sub first.
Here's my setup. I currently have a mishmash of gear. I built a chipamp "gainclone" and was originally going to do a tube pre-amp but I think I want to go full tubes and a lot of the integrateds are more affordable than pre-amp amp combos for the same reason that a lot of good A/V receivers are the same price as pre/pros. I'm currently using and H/K stereo receiver as a pre-amp only.I'm running Omega Hemptone Compact 8s. I like these speakers and they are new so I'm not entertaining replacing them with speakers that have more bass. My room is 25x40x8 and I sit about 15 feet back. I currently run a line level signal to a Paradigm X-30 which feeds my sub amp. This device does allow me to control the sub volume, but I most of the integrates I'm looking at don't have a tape out. My sub amp does not take speaker level inputs because I run a passive infinite baffle sub so no plate amp or anything like that. A regular amp powers the subs. The bass without the subs on is nowhere near sufficient in the room for the kind of music I listen to.
Integrateds that I'm considering are the Onix SP3, Dared VP-16 (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dared2/vp16_2.html) the Norh tube integrateds, and the Audio Space Mini and 3i (http://www.gini.com/index.php?id=int-amp). Basically the budget is around $1k and I need more than single digit watts due to the size of the room. This is based on my experience that the little Sonic Impact amp everyone was playing with distorted well before I reached appreciable output with my speakers.
So my situation as I see it is:
I need to achieve a line level somehow because not using a sub is not an option and there's no other way to feed my sub amp. And, ideally, I don't want to compromise the signal before it gets to my mains.
As was mentioned, some amps do have jumpers from pre to power section. I run vintage tube amps and I'm not familiar with any of the new stuff, but the only vintage tube amp I have that has jumpers is a Fisher X-202-B. All of mine have tape outs though. I guess nobody records from their stereos anymore. It seems the current trend is quite minimalist in terms of controls and other hookup options too. I would suggest you look into vintage. If you consider $1000 affordable you will find that you can get a really nice vintage tube integrated and, even if you have it completely restored, it will likely cost quite a bit less. Maybe a Sherwood S-5000 II? It uses 7591 outputs and produces about 40 wpc. Nice examples usually sell for $275 to $325 or so on ebay. They also made a version that used 7868 outputs, which is the same tube with a different base. Since both of these tubes are in current production, it shouldn't matter which version you get but I'm partial to the 7591. If you are running a passive sub with a regular amp, what are you using as a crossover? Or are you just running a full range signal into it and rolling off the treble? That is, if you have a treble control given the minimalist nature of these newer amps. If you are staying with your current passive sub setup, I would suggest using an active crossover. I just started experimenting with a cheap one and it sounds quite good. I picked up this Pyle 3-way electronic crossover. Definitely not "audiophile-approved". I'm only using it as a 2-way at the moment but it seems to work quite well. There are many of these on the market (mostly designed for Pro PA and DJ use) and you will find lots of posts on AA about the Behringher (I forget the model number) which is more expensive and has many more features including EQ. I just wanted something very simple to experiment with. I also like the fact that the Pyle has RCA inputs and outputs. Most of the better ones use 1/4" TRS and XLR so you need a bunch of adaptors to use them with standard stereo gear. The system I'm currently experimenting with uses the Sherwood to power a pair of Bozak woofers in open back cabinets and a Harman Kardon A-300 running the mid/highs, which is a pair of Genesis Physics V6s. The whole system cost less that $500 and it sounds awesome. . . . Charlie
I'm using an external crossover right now, but it takes a line level signal. It then sends a low-pass to the sub amp. I'm using a Paradigm X-30 to do this.
Since you've got the crossover issue settled, just go from the tape out to the crossover. It won't affect the signal or power going to the mains. Simple. As I said, most all vintage tube integrateds have a tape out. If you insist on spending a lot more for a new production amp that doesn't have a tape out, you can then pay someone even more to mod it so it has a line level output that is run off the volume control. Or, if you don't mind setting the volume on the main and sub amps separately, you can just get some Y connectors and run two interconnects from your source, one to the main amp and one to the crossover for the sub.
Just out of curiousity, what are you doing to keep "high" freq. signals out of the SW amp?You can cobble together a solution to the problem easily enough. Buy a pair of 1 KOhm linear taper pots. You connect the ends of the pots. in parallel with the main speaker cables at the integrated's binding posts. The "hot" leads of the cables that feed the SW amp get connected to the wipers of the pots. All "cold" connections are common at the integrated's binding posts. You use the pots. to level match the SW to the main speakers. Set the pots. once and forget them; so, pots. with screwdriver slots are appropriate for this job.
Eli D.
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