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Recently purchased a PrimaLuna 2. It was beautiful right out of the box. But I found the stock tubes to be a bit bright with my Gallo Reference 3 speakers. The Gallo's favor the mid range and upper end. And the bright tubes were too much.So I started my tube exploration. Power tubes I've tried so far... Electro Harmonix KT88, Tung-Sol 6550 (new production), EiKT90, and SED KT88 Winged-C.
I've also rolled some 12AX7's and 12AU7's. I tried a set of Electro Harmonix for the pre-amp tubes. I then picked up a set of nice Mullard NOS tubes for the 12AX7's and a set of RCA 5814 NOS black plates for the 12AU7's.
Along with the PrimaLuna 2 I also purchased the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb 4000 with the Upsampler from Upscale. So while I've been in the mode of upgrading tubes I also planted a set of Amperex 7308's in the CD Player... sweet.
Is anybody interested in hearing which grouping of tubes sounded best in this setup?
Follow Ups:
I have a prologe two I love el34s I ended up with the mullard reissue el34's pope 12ax7's and radiotechnique 12au7 in the systen smooth nice detail and air
I've just gone thru a bunch of tubes to set up a Primaluna 1, 3 & 5. Some of my conclusions were somewhat surprising to me, some not.
OK here goes...I have to start by describing the listening room. I have my system in an extra bedroom that we've turned into a nice listening room. The house was built in 1940. The room has an oak floor and old plaster walls. So yes it is a "live" room (btw, I just ordered a set of RoomTunes tuning pack). On top of that, the Gallo Reference 3 loudspeakers are slightly weighted toward the upper end. Don't get me wrong, the speakers are amazing. The slight emphasis to the upper end produces midrange and highs that are like honey. They have enormous soundstage and detail. They present air between the instruments and vocals beautifully. But they tend to emphasize the upper end in my listening room just a little more than I was comfortable with. So my room and the speakers pushed me to persist in finding the right tubes. The effort paid off :-)
I started by replacing just the power tubes without switching the pre-amp tubes. I first got a set of Electro Harmonix KT88's and installed them. They were much smoother than the brighter stock tubes that the PrimaLuna came with. I was almost happy with the sound. But the more I listened, I realized it was now missing some of the sweetness on the upper end. Cymbals didn't ring like they did with the stock tubes. True, they weren't as harsh sounding as the stock tubes, but they were still just a little bit dull sounding in my system.
Next I got a quad of Tung-Sol 6550's. They kind of went all over the place. The sound just didn't seem connected. They were brighter than the EHKT88's that I was starting to get accustomed to. But they wouldn't lock in and sounded kind of disjointed. I pulled them out and stuck the EHKT88's back in.
I also got a set of Electro Harmonix 12AX7's and 12AU7's at this point in time. I paired them with the Tung-Sol 6550's and wasn't impressed. I also paired them with the EHKT88's and still not blown away at all. The stock PrimaLuna pre-amp tubes performed better in this system.
Well by now I was starting to get a little frustrated. I talked to TubeWorld and they told me I was going sideways instead of moving forward. I had to agree 100%. He recommended some NOS pre-amp tubes. He suggested a set of CV4004=12AX7 Mullard tubes (1981) and a set of 5814A RCA black plates (1973). I decided to go ahead and splurge and get the 4 tubes for $230.
While I was waiting for the pre-amp tubes to arrive I called Kevin at Upscale again. While I was upgrading pre-amp tubes, I decided to upgrade the tube in the Ah! CD Player too. They recommended Amperex 7308 tubes for the CD player. The 7308 tube arrived a day before the pre-amp tubes arrived so I got a chance to audition the Amperex tube by itself without any other tube changes.
The Amperex 7308 made the most dramatic change to the system. I now got bass notes. The Gallo speakers are not bass monsters. Simply changing to the Amperex 7308's brought me delicious bass. It also brought more detail to everything I listened to. The Amperex tubes are FANTASTIC. I was seriously impressed with this tube upgrade. The stock Sylvania tubes that come in the CD player are just no comparison at all.
Next the pre-amp tubes arrived. The CV4004=12AX7 Mullard tubes (1981) and the set of 5814A RCA black plates (1973) brought the system up to the a whole new playing field. The sound was now warm. In fact it was gorgeous. The music was more inviting. It sounded tremendously more lifelike.
I put the Tung-Sol 6550's in with the new pre-amp tubes (remember the ones that were weird before with the PrimaLuna pre-amp tubes) and now they sounded great. The 6550's snapped into place.
I was happy with where I had brought the system to but I still wasn't 100% satisfied. I wanted it to be better than I deserved for the price I paid for this modest system and I knew I was just about there. I still felt there was just a few more drops of juice that I could squeeze out of this system. So I ordered two more sets of power tubes from Upscale. I know, I know, I'm at the point of obsession now, but it was really driving me nuts. I figure, hey I can always unload my least favored tubes on E-Bay so, I won't be out all that much.
The final touch. I ordered a set of EI KT90's and a set of SED KT88's from Upscale. Glory at last!
I had high hopes for the KT90's. Let me start by saying that the KT90's are reasonably accurate. And if I had never heard any better tubes I would have likely been impressed. But I have heard better tubes and the KT90's were a disappointment. They sounded just like they looked - long and thin. They are a little louder than the KT88's. They'd probably be good for hard core rockers. But they just couldn't cut the mustard in my system.
Before I comment on the SED's let me tell you how the other tubes sounded with the upgraded pre-amp & CD tubes...
EHKT88's still sounded kind of dull. I was underwhelmed with their performance. Nothing spectacular going on with these tubes.
The Tung-Sol 6550's actually sounded pretty darn good with the upgraded tubes. Like I said above I could almost leave them in and be happy. They became my second favorite tubes with the right pre-amp tubes in front of them.
The clear winner in this line up was the SED KT88's with set up I've put together. The SED's are dynamic as can be, plenty of punch where needed. The sound is rounder than the second best tube (Tung-Sol). The sound is fatter and far more detailed than the EI KT90's. The sound is more present and alive than the EHKT88's and the top end is fuller. The SED's brought out more bass than the other tubes too.
I had a tube gear audiophile friend stop by last night. He's got great ears. He had heard the original system and liked it. He heard it when I first upgraded the power tubes to EHKT88's and he could hear an improvement. When he heard it last night he was blown away. I had lined up 10 disks for an audition. We went from Eva Cassidy, to Lyle's Large Band, to Norah, to Natalie Merchant, to Cowboy Junkies, to Gillian Welch, to Elvis's Costello's North, to Aaron Copland, to Miles - and then we went back to Eva Cassidy to finish on. He had Eva Cassidy's Blues Alley disk so he was very familiar with it. He has also listened to the disk at a local tube gear store that carries a lot of Cary and Conrad Johnson stuff. He said that cut 13 (Oh, had I a golden thread) was the best he had ever heard it anywhere. And he meant it. Yikes what a compliment! When he said goodbye to my wife as he was leaving she asked him what he thought and he told her he had heard the angels singing.
Well I've gotta say that all the effort to match the right tubes to this system paid off. This system has genuine heart and soul with these tubes. It is sweet. It is powerful. It is dynamic. It has a soundstage to die for with instruments placed perfectly on stage. I've had friends come over and insist that I'm hiding a center speaker somewhere because the vocals are so locked in dead center between the two speakers; the speakers just just about completely disappear. Heck it even mimics surround sound to a degree because the sound wraps around so far to the right and left.
Here's the complete system:
PrimaLuna Prologue Two - SED KT88's, Mullard 12AX7 1981, RCA 5814A
Ah! SuperTjoeb 4000 (w/upsampler) - Amperex 7308
Gallo Reference 3 speakers
DH Labs Power Plus power cord
DH Labs Silver Sonic Q-10 speaker cables
Harmonic Technology TruthLink interconnectIn closing I'll say that my findings are simply my opinions. I listened long and hard with a very critical ear. What I came up with in the end is a home run IMHO. Of course my home rum might just strike out for somebody else in a different situation. Everything is relative. But I can honestly say I sure am satisfied with the range of tubes I ended up with.
Thanks for reading :-)
Rick Gelinas
Interesting you should say the EH KT88 sounded somewhat dull in your system compared to the stock tubes - that is exactly my experience! However, I also found that those EH's are capable of real magic if you replace the small signal tubes: I am now using them in conjunction with Sovtek 12AX7LPS and Mullard CV4003, which is a combination that really makes them sing!Haven't tried the SEDs just yet (but will in the near future).
FWIW, after trying out most new production types of power and brands of small tubes I ended up with SED 6550's and EI's 12ax & au 7'S in the Five. SED KT88's were a close second and I could see why some folks would like them. I think a lot depends on your speakers & room (I was using Tyler Linbrook Signature Systems in a medium sized room with wood floors. It is well damped however. Source was a BAT CDP.) Never could get any warmth or upper bass out of the Five using the original tubes. The system really dialed in when I changed the 12AX7's in the Three to EI which added some warmth and at the same time some extended highs. Synergy is a bitch isn't it! But it was worth the work. :-)
When your bank account recovers, consider this. Get a Hsu 500A subwoofer amp and a 43 Hz crossover (plug-in) to power the Ref 3s' second voice coils. You won't have any further concerns that these speakers are even the teensiest bit bass-shy, with 500 watts driving that last octave or so.When "civilians" ask me how much power I have, I tell them 512 watts -- 12 wpc SET monoblocks (845B outputs, Mullard EL34 drivers, NOS 67NG inputs) ... plus the Hsu sub amp. BTW, I'm using a Conrad Johnson Premier 17LS2 linestage and a custom-built phonostage (at the heart of it is a l985 NYAL Moscode SuperIt) with Tele 12AX7s plus miscellaneous SS CD players and R-R decks as input sources.
Those Ref 3s are fantastic.
Loved your tube-rolling saga.
Dave, it's funny you should mention that.I already tried a sub-amp. I left out that part of my story. I figured it wasn't all that relative.
Along the upgrade path I also purchased two sub-woofer amps from Parts Express. They are 240 watts each and have a variable crossover. It seemed like a perfect way to bring more bass to the Reference 3's.
Here's a link to the sub woofer amps...
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-804I ran a set of cables out of the 4 ohm taps on the PrimaLuna 2 and into the sub-amp. I then ran a second set of cables from the sub-amp into the speakers.
Long story short, they DIDN'T add much to the mix. I tried setting the crossover at several settings. They produced next to no additional bass response. In fact they actually seemed like they hindered the bass response. When the amps were disconnected the speakers actually produced more bass. I now have them sitting in the garage waiting for me to put them onto E-Bay.
Here's a question for you Dave. Can you see why these amps would have performed so poorly. It's got me stumped. It doesn't make sense. As far as I could see the amps should have done the job. Would the HSU amp perform a lot better in your opinion?
One thing you might try is to bring your sub amp back and try it again, recognizing that the second voice coils need the same 100-hour (minimum) break-in as the other Ref 3 speaker elements. And they need to be played HARD during this break-in period, with bass-heavy material.Worth a try, but I doubt that it will work because I doubt that this $200 sub amp has the necessary guts to do the job, which is why I ended up with the Hsu ($749) after my own attempt to do it on the cheap was only marginally successful. I had been running a pair of Hsu 10SW subs with my previous speakers, driven by an old Fosgate/Audionics 100 wpc SS amp, via a Hsu electronic crossover. The Hsu subs didn't integrate well with the Ref 3s, so I tried using just the amp and crossover with the Ref 3s. Not bad, but I felt there was more bass down there than I was getting. I had really wanted to go with the Gallo sub amp but gave up waiting and tried (30-day moneyback) the Hsu. This is a SERIOUS amp and it really did the trick, in my system at least.
I'm feeding it directly from my linestage, which has two sets of outputs. Another reason I went with the Hsu is that it has a subsonic filter (below, I think, 15 Hz) to eliminate any subterranean garbage on LPs, which I listen to about 75% of the time.
At roughly $200 less than the Gallo sub amp, which FINALLY seems to be available, I think the Hsu is a good deal. But clearly that last octave doesn't come cheap! Good luck, Dave
Thanks Dave, that's food for thought.
I really appreciate your suggestions.
Forgot to mention my own tube-rolling with the CJ linestage, which uses four 6922 types. The current top dogs are Amperex/Holland 6DJ8s, a favorite of the guy who wrote AA's tube FAQ.
I'm glad you got things sorted out. I don't know what the new production EI KT-90's sound like. But I think my type two's sound a little better than the SED's in my system.I would like to try the amperex 7308 on my Ah! player. But I bought mine used and Upscale won't give the good prices to people who bought used. His tube club (or whatever it's called) is what the tubes should sell for in the first place. His regular prices are highway robery. It's too bad. But I like the Tesla 6922 alot in this player. Have you compared the Ah! to any other players? I have the Ah! and JD100A. When I first got the Ah! I though it blew the JD100 away. But that wore off. I'm having a hard time deciding between the two as I want to sell one to recoup some cost. Really I'm not sure if iether one is the ultimate. Frankly 180g pressings with my 10x5 blow both players away.
That's interesting about how you liked the EI KT90 type 2 a little better than SED's. I had read comments from people with type 2's and that's what led me to try the tubes in the first place. Don't get me wrong, the type 3's sounded decent. But not nearly as rich as the Tung-Sol 6550's or my favorite SED KT88's.No I haven't compared the Ah! CD player side by side to any other CD players. I've listened to nice players in stores. But it's not like doing an A/B comparison. I largely went with the Ah! player from reviews I had read. And I wasn't disappointed. It's wonderful.
However the stock tubes in the Ah! player really are a limiting factor. They just aren't quite worthy of the potential of the player IMHO. However in all fairness, I probably could have been satisfied with the stock tubes if my listening conditions were more forgiving. It was just my insane pursuit of something better that led me to discover their weakness. The Amperex 7308's really improved performance in my system.
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