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http://www.tuberesearchlabs.com/products/gt800.htmI look at this and was just wondering - what kind of people would buy a pair of amps like these? Who *needs* that 800W of power? I mean, under what circumstances would amps like this makes sense?
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I can tell you that the TRL's are incredible sounding. Why would you want the GT800's? If you have the money, then the reason to have them is absolute endless headroom for a speaker load. Even with the 200's, I won't likely need their full capacity but you never want to "bump up" against that ceiling.Also, some posters seem to think that these are made in Japan for some reason -- TRL's are US product from a guy who produces them individually (with a very long wait list) and he also supplies quite a bit of equip. to recording studios.
I traded in my ARC Ref 600's (MKII) for the TRL's and then invested in a set of GEC KT88 (NOS) and I've never regretted the decision. Although I have no desire for the 400's or 800's (too many tubes, too much heat, too much money), I'm lusting after his new multi channel preamp (but it is just too pricey for me).
This is a meaty set of mono-blocks, don't know if I go for the look of it but would be good to heat the living room.regards
Ian
400 watts of glorious triode OTL goodness, LOL!
Those roller casters are a good idea too
With 800 watts you will not need 100db speakers. Maybe you could just run pieces of wire, they should make enough noise with 800 watts.
Keith,This kind of product is always interesting. I remember the impressive VTL "Ichiban" that boasted a kind of two story design- four stacked chassis for "two part monblocks". The many. many 6550s- I think 16 per side made 200W triode or 2000 in prentode- I don't know, but it was high power for it's class of operation. I could be misremebering- but it made an memorably impressive sound- as long as the preamp was not also VTL.
"Ichiban" is supposed to be the Japanese for "primo"- top level quality. So, I think the answer to your question of who will buy a $140,000 amplifier is answered by the Ichiban predeccesor- there are a few very wealthy people that search out the best in whatever they enjoy. And these are a narrow, targetted markewt. And the target market in this case is Asia- as I think can be gleaned from the marketing so far.
In reading the review on the maker's website- the language is very stilted and awkward- very unlike the smooth reviw style of US audio magazines. Also, there are no English colloquials, etc. With he reference to everything in how many yen it is 10,000,000! and Japanese house wiring limits, I think we can assume this is a translated Japanese review.
Those amplifers- if they ever exist***- will go in a large part to the environs of Tokyo.
***The blurry distant, dark photo and lack of meaningful or extended description and specification causes me to wonder if this isn't some kind of prototype that's announced and if there enough bites and noise about it they'll make 20. When you have a real product that is available there would gushing explanations of all the impressive features and innovative circuitry- that gets 63W from a 6550!
I.e.. the company will have to create a market by testing. I shouldn't wonder if the maker won't eventually read this thread, this very post.
As for the apparently devisive issue of what would happen to such amplifiers, I agree completelty with the knowledgable, experienced, and long-time poster here- kentaja- who has every right to believe there will be a problem when a 6550 is making 63W instead of 32- which is already high-ish. Notice the difference between the life of tubes in ARC as compared to vintage McInotsh- where they seem to last forever. Being used to ARC, a company that in many areas seem to push tubes near their limits, I can see what happens when a tube rating and noise ansd microphnics parameters are pushed constantly- the very rugged Siemens 6922 might last only a couple of hundred hours in the phono section of an SP10.
But, though I shall probably never see an 800W triode amplifer in person, perhaps if I keep looking towards Beverly Hills, someday I'll see the glow of the fire one caused.
Cheers,
Bambi B
Hi BambiThanks for candid reply. "Ichiban" does specifically mean "Number 1" in Japanese.
Also, I have a reason to believe that these amps are a real product - I saw someone put a used pair up for sale on audiogon.
I also agree with kentaja that a tube's spec has to be respected with any circuit designs. Regardless of price, I might add.
Keith
Keith,Yes, "Ichiban" translates as "number one". And, thanks for your clarification. I am curious further- does Ichiban have the same connotation in Japanese as is said "We're Number One" - to mean "We're the best sports team"- for exmaple: number one team equals the best, highest ranked, top quality, etc? An American colloquial for this is "primo" from "prime" or first- number one.
If you've seen these for sale- and very fast to be be sold as used- then of course these are actual objects. My meaning in referring to them as "real products" is that:
1. These are have already been made in any quantity in advance of purchase, i.e. at least the manufacturer has a stock of them.
2. A real product would have have some distribution- that is dealers would have to have them in stock be able to demonstrate them. No one- NO ONE will buy these amplifiers except a very modest- "can't lose" price - "for $800 I'll try it" - without hearing them with euipment in the same league as the final system. Even those foolish will money will not buy before hearing as they are also the biggest bargain hunters and have to have confidence in the companies they want bargains from.
3. Lastly, a "real" product is that there is existing tooling and components to produce in quantity-and I would guess that almost all investment so far has been to produce and refine protoypes. A small company will not invest in tooling, a production line, design packaging, set up distribution, advertise expensively something that can't be actually purchased but only ordered to be made- before some idea of a market is established.There are every sign that the 800W triode amplifiers are not a "real product" as of yet- a bit towwards what the old dot commies called "varporware"- grand in the promises, the most amazing thing that could ever be made, but it's still not even in beta- "still two more bugs" those intrepid game designers would say.
In these senses of "real" as a product- the sensation so far is there is only one or two handmade sets of these amplifiers and the maker is trying to generate interest in something that does apparently work very well- in one review, but none are trully available,and there is probably little in the way of current tooling for production. if you call this company and ask for one- they will gladly accept your $140,000 and may stay up nights to make one- there musr be some serious enthusiasts behind the scenes to try this one on!
And a trmenedous amount of high decibel, deep bass, "effortless" sound to quote the review- fun- for six hours.
Soon, Tom Selleck will return in his helivopter and remove the reamaisn for a swift and repsectful burial.
A lot of fun to see this end of the eccentric audio world! Thanks for bringing this one to my attention. Also, I do not wish to discourage the maker in any way and wish this company every luck. I knew Bob hovland when he started his high end company and I so admire the energy that goes into these more extreme objects.
These kinds of adventures into the electrical limits -and astounding "showoff" price- help keep our brains operating fully!
Imagine: that the typical Japanese house does not have an electrical service capable of delivering the 4600W peak intake of electrons of the one stereo set!
Cheers,
Have you ever read the Japanese Language/Japan "only" tube audio magazines? I've seen pictures of homes that had been blueprinted specially for audio! One guy knocked a wall out so his huge concrete LF horns could have the necessary space and weight-support structure... others had "tube rooms" specially built with halon fire suppression and heremetical seals w/ climate control. These guys can go to Vegas and drop the cost of those amplifiers on ONE SPIN of Roulette. Spending $140,000 on an esoteric pair of amplifiers is less than nothing to such heavy hitters. If they amps suck, at least they have bragging rights for a few weeks as no one else will have that same amp in their circle.... then they can always commit the ultimate act of audio snobbery and use them as a home-theater subwoofer setup! :0)
Hearing is believing. I just started using an electronic crossover, running my VTL 450 Sig's into the ribbons of Apogee Stages in triode mode, probably equivalent to 800 watts given the efficiency factors ( about 225 W with no passive crossover loss ~3db and limited frequency range ~3.5db total efficiency gain ~ 6.5 db), with the bass panels taken over by a Bel Canto Evo 200.2. The sound is so utterly clean and effortless as to defy belief, and that triode sound is heavenly.
The VTL's are incredibly rugged, my 6550 tubes test as new after four years of use and I ran them in tetrode mode mostly before the electronic crossover, which was about 62.5 watts per 6550. VTL's motto is hassle free tube sound, and it in no exaggeration judging by my units.
I would love to hear the VTL Siegfried. It is said to be a great amp. If you have some big Soundlabs before the new mod, or big Maggies 20.1's this would be the ticket. It is a big ticket though.Here is a link to an IAR review.
If the info on the website is correct, this amp runs the output tube extremely hard. Retubing all the time will be the result.Too bad the audio rags don't do some very simple analysis and state these sorts of things in the reviews. With only (12) 6550 output tubes producing 800watts, each 6550 is required to produced 66+ watts. Well beyond the design of the tube. These tubes will smoke very quickly.
By comparison, ARC Reference 600 which produces 500watts, uses (16) 6550 for output as I recall. This translates to 31.25watts per tube. Much more conservative approach and well within the limits of the tube.
Ridiculous that VTL designs such an amp at that price point that is so poorly executed, if it only uses 12 output tubes. And it is even more ridiculous that the audio rags hide this sort of nonsense.
That gets you down to a better watts per tube measure.The s-400 has 12 tubes total for 400 watts output.
Yes I read the site a bit more carefully. The actual rated power is 600watts into 8 ohms, so 12-6550 is a bit better. However, this is right on the edge of rated output, not a good way to design anything IMO. But hey if folks are having good luck with the product, what do I know? It will require retubing more frequenty that something that was designed a bit more conservatively.
has no means to bias each tube. likely drives them with some 12AU7 variant at six grids per plate or some rubbish as that, in AB1 as well. Single-pair output stages, at that power level *IS* difficult and expensive, and nearly impossible to do w/o fans in class A.None of this says anything about how they sound, or how much better they could...
live long and prosper,
Douglas
!
Beware the man who behaves deceitfully towards others, for there is nothing else to save you from his deceiving you
If you can buy those damn things you can afford a few tubes don't you think?
Oh agreed. Problem is you are going to be retubing all the time.My output tube count could be wrong, or VTL's site is wrong.
But if (12) 6550 is what they are using to produce 800watts out, then I would consider this a very poor excuse for an amp no matter how it sounds. At that price they should be able to get things right.
This thing is ONLY about the sound. So what if it's practical? None of those big tube amps are for the faint of heart. I used to use a CJ Premier One. That this stressed tubes BAD. Way too much B+ I think? Sounded great! Made for a nice space heater as well! Cozy up by the fire.
Oh I get it. Most certainly.Poorly designed products that are unreliable as hell, with huge price tags. Questionable that they sound any better than a correctly designed similiar circuit. I don't believe for a moment that a 6550, or any tube for that matter, sounds better when it is run well beyond its design limits. Kind of like a car engine runs best when it is way into the red and is about to blow! Not many folks would buy into this nonsense, but for some reason when it comes to audiophiles and their toys, they do. Amazing really.
But the audio rags extoll the virtues of this junk, and the dewy eyed guys with more money than common sense buy into this nonsense and just has to have this amp!
All part of the audiophile nonsense that keeps many a company going. High maintenance is one thing. Retubing an ARC Reference is not going to be cheap. But at least you are not required to do this every few hundred hours.
High end audio is one of the few rich boy sports where customers are sold unreliable, poorly designed garbage, and walk out the store with a smile on their face! The fact that the client is rich seems to be the excuse for ripping the guy(or gal) off!
First off the IAR is not your typical "audio rag". This sounds like the first time you have ever heard of it. No advertising. The IAR has a very long history. It ain't Stereophile. OK? Have a bit of respect and learn who it is you are spouting off about.Second, as big a fan as I am of Audio Research, the REF series amps are going to be the least reliable in the line by virtue of the sheer number of tubes employed. These are not a shining pillar of reliability. Tubes arc, fact of life. Every time you add a pair of output tubes you increace the problems that can occur by my guess a factor of about four. So you don't like the VTL design because of some preconception. What the hell do you really know about this amp other than the review I pointed you to(and then you bitch about)and what is on VTL's web site? This amp isn't aimed at your segment of the market. Get over it. If you want reliability and high power buy a solid state amp. If you want reliability in a tube amp buy a small one with one pair of outputs per channel. Perhaps the VTL people know something you don't? Could that be?
Seems you have never used or listened to an amp like these. Calling the VTL garbage with the small amout of info you have is closed minded.
Again, you are reading words into what I said and making many assumptions.First, I have been reading IAR for better than 20 years. Don't really place anymore value in what Peter has to say than any other publication. Way too many 1A products over the years, soon to be displaced by yet another, you got it 1A product, for me to take him too seriously.
Second, you are assuming that I do not have the means to afford such a thing as VTL Reference products. If I wished to own such a product, I could and have many times in the past.
Third, I never said the VTL amp was garbage. What I said is there are many products in the market place that have huge price tags and are nothing more than garbage. Whether or not the VTL falls in this camp, I do not know since I have limited exposure to the VTL product.
Forth, running additional tubes in the output stage certainly is not less reliable than an amp with a bit fewer tubes that runs those power tubes rated at or beyond rated output. The VTL Reference amp does run the 6550 right at rated output after looking a bit more carefully at their spec. Not beyond their spec.(6550), but right at the limits. Given the choice of 4 more tubes, ala ARC Reference 600 to produce 500 watts, or the 12 in the VTL at 600 watts? For my money I would go with the ARC. Running power tubes at rated output is not a recipe for long term reliability. Not all of VTL's products run the output tubes that hard. This amp does. ARC did this same thing years ago and learned a valueable lesson. A couple more tubes run more conservately for the same output produces a far more reliable amp. Sure your chances of having a bum tube are greater with more tubes, but that is about it. One could be really conservative and state that anything more than a pair of power tubes it too much.
I confirm...he really is an ARC Fan. ARC @ sixteen tubes...hmmm.
ARC fan no question about it. There are also many other fine makes of tube and solid state equipment in the market place. Just as good as any ARC product for the right system and the right owner.Now seriously. 12 output tubes or 16 output tubes? Either way you slice it, that is a whole lot of output tubes! Any amp with that many output valves it bound to have some issues. Just way too many power valves to get working in harmony. But given the choice of 12-6550 running at full output or 16-6550 running at 70% output? All things being equal I will go with 16. Tubes that have an easy life in the circuit generally perform and last much better than tubes that are running full tilt.
The first you do is to swap tubes around to see if it follows the tube. What a giant pain in the ass that would be.
Agreed with that, I would prefer tube amp using four power tubes only, working with high efficiency speakers. Also, quad set of old stock tubes are easier to find.
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