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In Reply to: Re: OT Ebay Frustration posted by Dave Cigna on March 31, 2007 at 16:00:33:
It's because a lot of people will do dumb things in the heat of excitement. You've seen it happen a hundred times on these very fora. I actually got scolded back in the day for bidding early, potentially driving up the price. I don't want to get in a bidding war with some emotional type who'll drive the price up out of my range, and then stiff the seller when he comes to.Poinz's rools; Cruise the auctions for the (laptop/tuner/2A3) you're looking for, keeping a list of the auction numbers in a .txt file on the desktop (not at the 'bay) with brief descriptions and ending time. Go back and look at them once in awhile and see if idiots are bidding them up, if the BIN has been excercised, etc. When there's an hour to go, look again, and then again at five minutes. You're still interested, go log out and back in again (this is important), and go back to the auction, refreshing the page every minute or so. If it still looks a bargain at one minute, go fill in the actual max you're willing to pay for it, not some pinch amount. Keep refreshing the page, and if it still looks good at thirty seconds, start counting in your head, get down there and make sure your bid is still filled in, go the verify page. At ten seconds or so, pull the trigger.
Go back and see what happened. No hard feelings, no bidding wars, no remorse at having bid too skinchy and lost; you either got the piece at your good price (sometimes substantially less) or somebody got it at a price you were unwilling to pay anyway; go look at the next one in the list. I like the 'bay; I've hardly ever had a negative experience there, and they were at least partially my fault.
Aloha,
Follow Ups:
PoinzSorry but that type of bidding is deceitful at best IMO.
If you are willing to pay $100 for product X then bid that.
And someone bids $105, then you think about it and decide.
Maybe I'll go $110 but that's it.
BUT NO A**HOLES LIKE YOU SUGGEST THAT WE ALL BE
don't give you the chance to decide rationally.
Because when you bid there isn't enough time to rebid.
Sorry but I think that tactic is somewhere
between a scam and a swindler.
Last second bidding is a legitimate method of bidding. There is no deceit involved at all.The whole idea with an auction is to have your max bid in mind and under no circumstances exceed it. That is proper and good practice. You can put your max bid in at any time and only the bid amount needed to win the auction will be used.
You might not like this method but there's no need to call people names. If you want to put in a smaller amount than your maximum you are prepared to bid, then that's your problem not anyone elses. And it's a problem of your own making. Maybe that's why you're getting annoyed?
Yes it is legal.
But legal is the minimum level of behavior.
Less than that is criminal.
Now ethical is a higher bar.
And moral is an even higher bar.
Do you want to have a society that
the accepted behavior only seeks
to attain the basic legal status?
I would hope that we would want to aspire
to a much higher standard than that.
I expect myself to live by the moral standard.
I would hope that others would aim higher
than just what is legal/not criminal.
Yes it is legal.
But legal is the minimum level of behavior.
Less than that is criminal.
OK so we're agreed that late bidding is not illegal. So what's your problem? Why go about name calling to law abiding people? People that are following the rules.
Now ethical is a higher bar.
And moral is an even higher bar.
Whose ethics? Whose morals? Are you claiming the moral and ethical high ground in every sphere of your life? I can guarantee that you are not the moral /ethical policeman. I bet if I was to dig a bit deeper I could find some morals and ethics of yours that I would find offensive. But I don't go round pointing fingers at people and calling them names just because their behaviour doesn't agree with my standards.
Do you want to have a society that
the accepted behavior only seeks
to attain the basic legal status?
It's a starting point. If everyone was to keep it legal, there would be little trouble.
I would hope that we would want to aspire
to a much higher standard than that.
I expect myself to live by the moral standard.
Again, whose morals?
I would hope that others would aim higher
than just what is legal/not criminal.
I still don't understand why you have this as a problem that somehow marks you out as a superiour being. You know the rules of the auction site. You have the opportunity to bid up to your maximum at any time of your choosing. You know the length of the auction. This is not a regular auction that closes when the last bid is in. It is an auction with a time limit. So why do you now what to change the format to suit your indecisive style?
That is so childish. In that somehow you feel you are losing out so you want to change the rules. And since you can't, you go about name calling. Blimey!
you seem to be the immoral one. You seem to think that you, the SELLER, deserves some inflated price. If you want a given price, list the item at that price. As a BUYER, enter the price you want to pay, fini. Whether you enter that price at 7 days to go or 7 seconds to go matters not. What matters is that you have entered your best price. How could that be immoral? This is how markets work, puts and calls my friend.
RodneyI have been in the buyer and seller position.
Either way I believe that last second bidding is WRONG.
I believe the seller has the RIGHT to receive the
top dollar he can for the merchandise he is selling.
This is straight CAPITOLISM in action.
I believe the buyer has the RIGHT to the option
of out bidding you if he chooses to.
Again this is CAPITOLISM in action.
As in any live auction that I know of,
a buyer has the RIGHT to outbid any bid.
This RIGHT is stripped from the buyer
by the last second bidding practice.
You just are trying to justify a
cheating practice that benefits you.
Tyrantical or selfish - pick one.
It is an unethical BUT legal practice.
Enough said ...
No my friend, a market where a price can be adjusted after the sale of a contract is not capitalism. A market where a seller can demand a certain price or is insured of a certain profit is also not capitalism. Capitalism is a market wherein the cotract sale is of a defined duration wherein the high bidder wins. This is how bidding works. What is immoral is when a low bidder gets a second chance to adjust there bid after the duration of sale has ended. Companies are fined all the time because they use inside information or special channels to adjust their bids on contracts.There is no morality either way here. Imagine if your favorite football team winds the clock down before kicking the game winning field goal. Is that immoral?
No matter, all of this is off the mark. The key here is to learn to sell your wares in the open market, to use the tools at your disposal to maximise your profit. Remember free markets, capitalism, do/does not insure profit. They only insure that you have an opprotunity for profit, unfettered by entities that can change the rules in the middle of the game. This is important as stability (and are key yto creating confidence among buyers. Rather than repeat myself, I would ask that your refer to my first post for an expansion on this point, as well as an introduction to the points I will make below.
I looked at your ads, and I can give you a little free advice. On an auction that starts with some price greater than $1 or so, there will always be a lag in bidding. This is because most early bidding knocks the bidding up to about 40-50% of the settle price. When a person with no selling experience (that would be you base on your feedback, 1 item = no experience) sells for the first time, particularly fragile items like speaker drivers, it is important that they address issues like packaging and shipping. Typically, people have the chance to buy a given item from several sellers, and a seller must explain in some way why they should buy from him/her. You need to draw people in. Why would anyone buy a CRT monitor today? One reason, CHEAP. By putting it up with a starting price that is very close to its actual value you chase off all the cheapskates. You must answer questions accurately. By telling someone that you do not know what the shipping costs are you come off as a lazy ass that does not know what they are doing. Of course you know what the shipping is, you are the one selling the item. Come on!
I am sorry bud, but just because you do not want to do the work necessary to sell things on ebay does not mean the system is broke.
Regards, and good luck with the auctions,
Rodney> > a market where a price can be adjusted
> > after the sale of a contract is not capitalism.I NEVER suggested that.
I don't know where you got that from.> > A market where a seller can demand a certain price
> > or is insured of a certain profitI NEVER said that either.
> > Capitalism is a market wherein the cotract sale
> > is of a defined duration wherein the high bidder wins.Contracts are legal terms NOT capitolism in action.
> > What is immoral is when a low bidder gets a second chance
> > to adjust there bid after the duration of sale has ended.What is immoral is NOT letting a bidder HAVE A CHANCE
of out bidding YOU !!!> > Companies are fined all the time because they use
> > inside information or special channels to adjust
> > their bids on contracts.Again the minimum of morality is broached = crime.
I am talking of a higher standard.
I am proposing that you give everyone a chance
to outbid you if they want - The Free Market!> > Imagine if your favorite football team winds the clock
> > down before kicking the game winning field goal.BUT you can see what they are doing, with snipping
you CANNOT know what they are up to until it's done.
They win and you are left saying - What Just Happened?> > to learn to sell your wares in the open market
I want it even more an open market where every buys the
product at the highest price someone is willing to pay.> > unfettered by entities that can change the rules
> > in the middle of the game.Again I NEVER proposed that.
> > Of course you know what the shipping is
No I do not know what the shipping is.
I don't know what the package weighs.
So I could only guess which is what I did.
I resent that you are saying that I lied.> > you do not want to do the work necessary
> > to sell things on ebayI researched alot to find the specifications
on the discontinued speaker that I have for sale.
For the Orion MB I had to post on several boards
and had to repost twice on a couple before I got
any response for the specs that I got.
When I buy I want to know more about what I am buying
than how much shipping is going to be to the penny.On the monitor - I put the value of what it is worth to me.
I really don't care if I sold that anyway.
I am just posting of why people wait til
the last seconds before bidding.
And I was surprised to find out that many of you have rationalized/justified yourselves in this practice.
And no one spoke up against it so I did.
one of the great things about our society is that everyone is entitled to their perspective. That is where I would like to leave the discusion regarding last minute bidding.However, I would like to say, DUDE! Come on! You HAVE to know how much the package weighs before you list (or hav a good estimate). Certainly a bidder is going to take shipping into account when placing their best bid. Moreover, the way you deal with shipping charges give the buyer an insight into your ethics, as many sellers over charge via a set shipping fee or handling fees. Your background research was good, sure, but there is more to selling. You have to convince people to buy YOUR item. Like your ad when you talk about the three way system. Now that is personable, and shows that a fellow audiophile is selling the item. You could have gone a step further and given crossover points, because I am sure that 5 people seeing your ad had that question in their minds. That is not my style, ussually, but some people do things like that. With the monitor, you have to tell them that you have the box, or that you will package well. This is very important on some items, like turntables, where the original box may add 50-100% to the final price.
I am not trying to bust your chops, just give you, and others, some solid advice. I have been buying stuff and selling my extra stuff on ebay for about 6 years now. In all my buying, exactly two items arrived undamaged and as described, some end caps for my pool cues, and a handmade briefcase/man purse, which, quite frankly was a steal, even at its more than I ussually spend price. The rest were incorreclty described, broken, shipped so poorly that they were hardly recognizable, ect... I am sure that many have had similiar experiences. Add to this the rampant fraud on ebay as of late, as in 10-20% of all items in some categories are scams:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/shady/messages/2440.html
Jut remember, the only way to increase the final price is to increase the number of bids. Think about what you look for in an auction and apply to your sales.
Bottom line, if you want top dollar, do the research, learn to sell, and no excuses.Best regards,
> What is immoral is NOT letting a bidder HAVE A CHANCE
of out bidding YOU !!!
TKIt seems the "normal" thing to say BUT
that would only make it much worse.
Gov't intervention leads to more laws.
Every law reduces your freedom even more.
I know it's tough to regulate yourself from
doing something you know is wrong BUT
that is precisely what I am proposing.
Self-Control is needed more today than ever and
it seems to be lacking in society world-wide.
I am proposing self-control from doing what,
if you have any moral sense, you know is wrong.
To those without moral sense then the ONLY rule
they see is in the law, but most others recognize
a higher standard and I am calling for that to be
the standard of behavior not JUST what is lawful.
is immoral, while your preferences become the standard of morality?Is it possible that your are the one that want to regulate my behavior by reducing my freedom. You simply use the fancy term "self control" when in fact you want everyone to be just a clone of yourself.
I want to regulate NOTHING!!!
I am asking for self-control.
Let the one who wants to pay the most for an item WIN.
What is so hard about this concept???
No trickery - No games - Just fairness !!!
It is fair that the one who wants to pay
the most for an item - gets the item.
Fair to the buyer and fair to the seller.
You all want to justify a position that
is unjustifiable except it's legal.
Fine - it's legal but it was legal to kill Jews
in 1942 Germany but still didn't make it right.
Just because something is legal doesn't make it right.
So many things in this world are legal but not right.
No matter how you try to twist the it -
It still isn't RIGHT !!!
I didn't really care about the argument, but someone needs to tell you to chill the hell out.Some weekend reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_by_associationRead those, try to understand them, and also realize that when you resort to pulling the Holocaust card to support your completely unrelated claim, you risk having people lose what little respect they might have had.
Sorry if I offended you but they never seemed to get it so
I made an analogy that I hoped would finally get thru to them.
But I guess morality is beyond their grasp.
I could have used several other analogies
but I don't think they would have gotten it.
BTW I intended them to feel guilty.
They wouldn't respond to reason so
I figured emotion might work.
I am done now anyway.
How you can determine someone's morality by his bidding behavior on ebay is beyond me. No, I don't feel guilty. But you did succeed in offending me, so your efforts weren't a total waste.
DanL
I am not blind; you are the one that is confused between two completely different concept: morality and preference.If you think following written rules on an auction site is immoral, then all transactions on that site are immoral and you are a willing co-conspirators of immoral conducts.
I say -- prevent all biddings until the last minute of the auction. One minute only and bid whatever you like. Now does that make you happy? It will be perfectly fair to all bidders. It is no difference than a football game in which the clock will run out when it strikes 0:00.Of course, you will object because you prefer other means. That is a preference issue and has nothing to do with morality. Calling everyone a thief and phrasing like you are some kind of Jesus wanna-be just demonstrated that you are .....
I just don't get it. If you want everyone to have time to reconsider and bid, then when would the auction end? If someone came up with a method to do that, they could take most of ebay's sellers away.In the mean time, the many immoral thieves of this asylum, of which I guess I am one, will just have to bear the shame of not living up to your standards. I'm surprised you can lower your standards enough to still be associated with such a group.
> > If you want everyone to have time to reconsider and bidI am talking about sniping.
Purposeful - caculated - sniping.> > bear the shame of not living up to your standards
Ammoral people don't have shame.
They don't have any problems fudging the law.
As long as they are legal they're happy as pig in sh*t.> > I'm surprised you can lower your standards enough
> > to still be associated with such a group.From the many emails I have recieved from inmates -
you are in the minority.
A vocal minority but minority just the same.I have stated my position several times now.
And you only want to see what they want to see
so that they can justify themselves.
Sniping is still wrong and will always be wrong.
I am done
The bottom line is that you simply hate fairness, and want to bend the rule so you are always on top.Killing Jews in 1942 is not right, and yet killing Iraq children "for freedom" is great and wonderful in 2007. The bullshit surrounding us is just too thick.
> > The bottom line is that you ..want to bend the ruleNEVER NEVER NEVER have I said ANYTHING like that!
I said that people should not snipe.
YOU guys keep thinking rules.
I say it's unfair to buyer and seller to snipe.> > yet killing Iraq children "for freedom"
Yet Sadam was killing them 10 times more.
Selective hearing and writing comes easy to you.
I will not continue this ...DanL
If absolute fairness is your goal, then why does Ebay charges an obscene percentage from the final sale and then tag on another obscene percentage from using paypal? Maybe using Ebay simply mean fairness does not apply as the battleground is simply unfair to begin with.So don't use it. Don't sell there and don't buy anything there.
> > If absolute fairness is your goalEverything will never be fair.
That doesn't mean we can't do what we can
to make it as fair as we can for as many as we can.
So are you implying that anything you do -
which is legal - you can do without consequence?
So, everything will never be fair, yet as long as it is fairer to you but not necessarily to others, then that should be the standard.I fail to see how that make any sense whatsoever.
Fair is the person who wants to pay the most
for the product gets to but the product.
Where am I in this statement ???
If you can't understand that then I pity you.
The lobotomy must have been terrible.DanL
and you knew there was a butt coming didn't you?Okay, in a real auction maybe you could bid as the seller. But in most cases you handle that by setting a reserve. Ebay gives you a few ways to deal with that. Use a reserve, or better yet IMHO, a reasonable starting price. But in reality neither of these practices will net you the best selling price as they typically come from no reserve auctions that start at a penny.
So for you....I think your best option would be to make an average of the last 3 auctions for your item and list it with a buy it now price that reflects that info. If folks are too stupid to take a reasonable deal let them screw themselves by trying to low ball you which means they end up paying more than the BIN asking price. Either way I should think you would be happy.
BTW, where you unhappy with the price the 3 drivers went for?
Russ
P.S. Free market works both ways....or sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes he eats you:)
Russ> > But in reality neither of these practices
> > will net you the best selling priceMy point the best selling price is the reason for an auction.
> > BTW, where you unhappy with the price the 3 drivers went for?
No, I got more than I expected - with no sniping.
(I have two more tomorrow though - No bids yet)I just want a fair price for merchandise.
Some refer it to as the inflated price.
As much as the market will bear is fair IMO.
Why the need to reconsider? If, with rational thought, you are willing to go say 10% higher, then why not set your bid higher from the start. If irrational bidders drive the price out of sight, it's no harm to you anyway since you bid only what you were willing to pay. Maybe you didn't get the bargain you wanted, but you didn't get ripped-off either. Ebay gets paid by it's sellers, and this system is what works best for the sellers, as you may find out yourself soon enough. Poinz is saying he'll put in one bid based on what he's willing to pay. Except for timing, he's doing the same thing as you, and timing means nothing if you bid what you are willing to pay.
It's like those commentators who
say something controversial right
before it's time to go off the air.
No chance for rebuttal.
Legal - yes
Unethical - yes
Ammoral - yesOr like those people who write you to see
if they can get it at a certain price right
now before any bidding starts.Or those who write you after the bidding ends
to see if they can get that item a few dollars
cheaper than your minimum asking price.Some call those people frugal
I call them much almost thieves!From a seller's perspective they are cutting your profits.
From a buyer's perspective they are negating any response.
That's all I have to say about this.
Hey,Generally, in my experience, about 50% of the bids on audio/vintage/tube related stuff happen in the last 1-2 minutes. These bidders tend to be the less than 200 feedback types, often people who have been buying a fair bit in the last 6-12 months, the market movers, and few wait for my train to come type buyers. Prior to these bids you get allot of newbie bids, less than 20 feedbacks. These folks seem to just enter their high bid and forget about it. The early bids ussually come form very high feedback bottom feeders, who enter a nominal bid on everything, and RSS and bid types, who are allerted to the item auction and enter a solid, low ball bid.
I have watched the dymanics of ebay for six years now. Things have definately changed. Buyers have become more rational, as evidenced by more stable prices, and have become more predictable, as evidenced by the very clear patterns that emerge in almost every auction. Currently, about 30-50% of the final value is reached in the first 24-48 hours of auction start. The variables here include time and day of listing. Most of the final value will then be reached in the last few minutes. There are a number of issues surrounding final value, even among items with very stable price histories. These of course are the real secrets to ebay. I have often joked with my wife that a student of ebay can gain an MBA's worth of knowledge about markets, international financial instruments, pricing, advertising, ect...
The thing to remember here is that ebay is an open market. Like any open market some people try to cheat. Others study the system and devise practices that are safe and effective. Lst minute bidding is one of these practices. It keeps one out of bidding wars. It sets in stome, effectively, ones best, rational offer. It ultimately keeps pricing sane.
Now, if you are trying to maximize your prices, you need to find someone who actually knows what they are doing and get advice. Solid sellers in audio related stuff average 20% or more over the average ebay price. There is a reason for this!
Best regards,
If making a profit is nothing to be ashamed of (and I think it isn't), then trying to get something for the lowest price possible is nothing to be ashamed of too.
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