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I bought off Ebay 3 reel to reel tapes pre-recorded at 7.5 ips. I have borrowed a friends Panasonic consumer reel to reel to play them on. The machine can play up to 15ips, so its usable. I'd rather have a Revox B77 to use, but this is what I have. I loaded up the first tape which was Frank Sinatra's Stranger In the Night. The sound was so bright with no bass I was wondering why the sonics were out of wack. I found out it was the EQ speed switch on the tape player was not working properly. I had to switch it around a few times to get the sound to change and eventually it went to normal. The bass came back and the high end was a little muted, but playable. I wouldn't expect tapes of this age to have a great high end anyway. It was nice listenning to the smooth sound off these tapes with clear voices. To archive these tapes I recorded them on my Sony TC-K909ES cassette deck in Dolby S. I used a NOS 1987 Maxell XL-IIS tape which seemed to have aged a little as the bias (normally 2 oclock) was around 10 Oclock and the sound was a little distorted with less highs. I might redo this down the road with a better tape. Anyways I got the recording done. I was amazed how much tape oxide was on the heads and rollers. These old tapes shed. I got my second reel to reel out and it was Frank Sinatra's Greatest Hits also at 7.5 ips. This tape had issues. It keep breaking every few feet and I ended up losing the first song. I had to let the tape fall on the floor without using the takeup reel, just to even play the tape while recording it. The recording wasnt very good as tape oxide clogged the heads dropping out the high end. It was basically a right off. I tried spooling the tape back up to do the second side, but while winding it back on the reel the tape broke. The whole thing went into the garbage and I ditched the cassette recording mid way through. Again cleaned the heads, etc. Lots of oxide. Last reel to reel was a real treat. I haven't heard this recording before and I'm suprised they dont still sell it today. I found out its also on LP and CD, which I ordered both off Ebay. The CD has been deleted and is no longer available. This recording was "The Joy Of Christmas" with Leonard Bernstein, the New York Philharmonic and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. This music would make a great edition on SACD. I might email Sony to suggest it. Though Christmas is now behind us for another year (well 10 months), the choir parts were quite enjoyable. Its a good recording. I would never had guessed it was recorded in the 60s. I had some distortion more on side B, but this may have been the cassette. Also the tape ran out on the last song (47 mins long instead of 45 mins- I used a 90 min cassette for all 3 of these tapes). The high end seemed to dull down a little on side B. Its neat to be able to hear good recording on R2R, but too many tape problems with old tapes seems to take away from that. Im not sure if I'll redo the tape (on a longer cassette) and use the LP next time. But this was fun. I would hear more recordings off R2R, but due to age problems I might just leave it at that. I new the cassette I used was not at its best when I could hear a difference between the source and tape, though this was subtle.
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But I wouldn't hold my breath or bet the farm on it. They've got their head in the trash can. Their sitting on a gold mine in their vault. All they have to do is get off their greedy butts and start releasing in a quality medium. But few of us want or demand quality. They are more concerned at someone making an "unauthorized" copy that releasing quality. Ray Hughes
"I take you as you are
And make of you what I will,
Skunk-bear, carcajou, bloodthirsty
Non-survivor.
Lord, let me die but not die out." THE LAST WOLVERINE by James Dickey
I keep a Tandberg 64X tube deck around that I rebuilt to use specifically for playing and archiving these old fragile tapes. These decks when working properly have very gentle transports. They also have a fairly slow FF and REW so I always FF and then REW an old tape before trying to play it. I found the tapes are less likely to break on playback this way. As another poster said its worth putting leaders on these old tapes especially as many of these tapes are already missing several inches of tape at the beginning and this will help a lot. Many of the 3 motor high speed high torque FF and REW decks are just to brutal for these very fragile tapes. I found that the older the tape the better they usually are, especially the ones that were based on Scotch 111 tapes that don't seem to suffer from sticky shed much. I have tapes from '56 my Dad made on Scotch 111 that still play perfectly.
If I'm not mistaken, Scotch 111 was an acetate backed tape. Acetate tapes become brittle and are subject to breaking if the machine's transport handles them poorly. They won't stretch, they just break. "Sticky shed" is not the issue with these old tapes, brittleness is.Enter mylar backing. These tapes will stretch (or snap if stretched enough) if the transport handles them poorly. Fortunately, at 15 ips, the stretch generally affects less than a tenth of a second of music (less than about an inch of tape). Unless you're really unlucky (e.g., a run of sixteenth notes being damaged), or are very critical, after repairing it the missing inch may go unnoticed.
Enter high output oxides with unstable polymer binders. Sticky shed city. These tapes began to appear around 1970, and finally went away 10-15 years later, depending on the manufacturer.
So, sticky shed is a problem which is specific to certain tape types, just as brittleness and breaking is.
Polyester (Mylar) -backed tapes can be baked to draw the moisture out of the binder, giving it a temporary window of stability for transferring. Acetate-backed tapes cannot. How do you know if your tape is acetate or Mylar? Hold a reel up to a fairly bright light and look through the tape "edge on". If it appears brownish and is somewhat transluscent, it's probably acetate. If it appears grayish and doesn't allow much light through, it's probably polyester. Of course, if you know it's construction based on the "model number", then you know.
If you suspect that the tape is a high output polyester tape from the 70's or 80's, DO NOT, repeat DO NOT, rewind it. Fast, slow, rotating guides or not, DO NOT wind it. You are risking damaging the tape even further. Rather, just play maybe 30 seconds or a minute of it (even if it's tail-out.) Look at the residue on the heads and stationary guides. If it's an unusually large amount, you should bake it first. Rewind the played section directly from one reel to the original, bypassing all heads and guides.
See "Baking Audio Tapes" at www.youramerica.net for more information about baking tapes.
Hi, DaveInVA:The best advice is to carefully wind and rewind old tapes before playing them and also to use the < < and > > buttons on a deck like a ReVox to GENTLY brake in an opposite direction to the direction of winding BEFORE hitting the STOP button.
If you try to merely press STOP on a ReVox A-77, you may snap the tape.
Also, I believe that 3M ceased production of 111 tape LONG before manufacturers switched to synthetic tape binders, which was responsible, in part, for causing the dreaded "sticky shed syndrom".
So, apparently, this is one more reason why Scotch 111 is almost a "safe" bet in that regard.
Cheers!
Thats why I like the Tandberg 64X so much for dealing with these old tapes. It also sounds pretty darn good with its tube playback electronics. It has very gentle braking (if working properly) and the FF and REW are slow compared to many 3 motor decks. So far the only tape I have had a lot of trouble with is an old 7.5 ips Ray Charles tape I got off Fleabay. It was so rotted you couldn't even unwind the tape off the spool by hand, it just came off in pieces. Some of the really bad sticky shed tapes that I just want "One more play" out of for archiving I will hold a piece of lint free cloth up against the tape just before it enters the first head guide and its amazing how much crap it picks up that would otherwise be deposited on the heads and guides. Even so with some tapes I've still had to clean the tape path after every song to keep the sound quality even. I haven't tried the oven technique of drying the bad tapes yet but am going to try it soon for some tapes I made in the 70s that are getting nasty. I have had mixed results putting several fresh silica gel packets into a zip lock bag with the tapes and letting them sit for weeks before using them. Sometimes it helps a lot and sometimes it does nothing to help.
Thanks, Dave:I well remember those Tandberg decks. In fact, downstairs I have a 64 tubed deck and another play only deck made around 1961. I think it is a model 6, perhaps, without any electronics at all. You were supposed to plug it into the TAPE HEAD inputs on a Marantz 7 for use. No problem with that aspect, since I still own a bunch of old Model 7 preamps and some McIntosh C-22s. I guess the only problem these days is trying to obtain any spare parts, since Tandberg is completely out of the audio business, though they make computer drives and some hi-def stuff for pro TV these days.
I do not go after pre-recorded tapes of any kind on eBay, for the simple reason that I fear the discovery that they might be in bad condition. I am basically interested in discovering how good some can sound, which has been the BIG surprise of late.
However, I am not about to invest big chunks of change in this technology. It is merely a curiosity with me and I do own lots of fine gear on which to play them back, including my very own Ampex 350-2, 354, ATR-700, Tandberg TD-20-A and two nice ReVox A-77s. I hardly ever use these decks, except the one ReVox A-77 Mark III, which appears to still be in reasonable callibration. I would hate to have to replace the heads one day, but I have done relapping at home, you know.
I am just lucky in stumbling upon these tapes, that is basically it!
BTW, I see no harm in putting little packets of dissicant in the boxes of your reels. You do know that you can reactivate those silica gell packs by reheating them, don't you?
Good luck and happy listening!
Keep the machine running and clean.
Fortunately everything you need to make the old single motor Tandbergs are still available. The figure 8 belts are still sold by at least 2 vedors and they are reasonably priced. The pinch rollers like turning to goo on these but there is a guy that will rebuild your old one for not a lot of money. The brake/clutch pads are just sheet cork and you can easily cut the new ones yourself. I have a Model 5,6, 64,64X, 3000X. 6000X. For some reason R2Rs keep following me home (the lost puppy syndrome) and I now have over 200 of the damn things. I still have 3 Crown 700 series machines I bought back in the 70s to make live recordings. Of course those 3 Crowns multiplied over night into 11. One of my hobbies is making "vintage" 2 channel recordings of live bands here locally, usually Jazz and Bluegrass or Folk. Sometimes I set up 3 stereo pairs of different vintage and new microphones going to 3 different decks so I can compare them later. I have 3 Tapesonic 70 series machines, 2 tube and 1 solid state that I have rebuilt that I like to use. I also have a Studer B62 that does a great job and I when I feel like using something newer I use a modified Tascam 70-4 1/2" machine. Also in my collection are (2) Revox G36, (6) Sony 777, (2) Sony 770, (1) Sony 854, Sony APR2003,(3)Akai 345, Akai 330, (2) XV, Akai 747, Braun 1000/4, Several various Uher machines, lots of moni tube machines and wire recorders. I keep meaning to thin out the heard but instead they just keep multiplying...Just like all the other vintage audio stuff I keep tripping over here..
Hi, Dave:You have me beat, hands and reels DOWN!
What microphones are you using when you record to 2-track?
Do you have any experience with the old B&O BM-3 or BM-4 ribbon microphones, by any chance?
I have a pair of freshly re-ribboned BM-4's (Steve Sank did the ribbons for me). Even with my Ampex MX-10 (with the Jensen 115 trannies installed) there is not quite enough gain to get a decent s/n ratio. My Aphex 1100 yields -65 dB gain, but even it is apparently not quite high enough, gain-wise.
You thoughts would be most appreciated!
Sounds like you enjoy what you are doing in a BIG way!
I also remember the Sony 777 series decks very fondly. They sort of took away a chunk of business from Ampex when they came out in the early sixties, didn't they!Cool!
I am not familiar with the B&O units. I have a pair of Shure 300 ribbon microphones I use for the 2nd stereo pair when I am using more than one recorder. They also have very low output and I had the same problem when I also had a Ampex MX 10. I had always wanted a MX10 but after I got one I just couldn't get the detail out of it I wanted. It did have a vintage sound though. I was going to put in all Sowter transformers but never could justify spending the money so I eventually Fleabayed it. I also didn't really need a mixer as I always use just a pair of stereo mikes so I really needed a good set of precision balanced mike preamps. I decided to build my own. I also decided I couldn't afford all the transformers I'd need as it would take 2 per channel and I wanted to make 6 channels and it wasn't worth doing unless I used top notch transformers. I settled on a design from tube cad that was really a balanced phono preamp that used 6922 tubes so I removed the passive eq and tweaked the values to use 6021 sub mini tubes. I added switchable gain, phase and input termination but kept it pretty basic. As for other mikes, I have been playing around with converting Chinese Apex condenser mikes to use better capsules and other parts. They pretty much suck stock (1 reviewer said he had to go through 30 of them to find 2 that matched). Fortunately they use standard 34mm mounts so Peluso Neumann style capsules bolts right in and I removed the Chinese 12AX7 and used a 6021 submini and better passive parts. I am also rebuilding its power supply into a different cabinet and since the Sowter trannies I ordered to replace the internal Chinese probably won't fit in the mike shell I will put them in the power supply cabinet. I also have a pair of AKG C12 condenser mikes that are usually my primary pair but I have high hopes for these modified Apex units.
The Sony 777 machines are real workhorses but stock they double as a pink noise generator. I modified one so it now has external bias adjustment and better parts on the playback cards and it made a big difference. Ferrite playback heads off certain newer models can also be installed as they are compatible mount and impedance wise so I want to try that on the "J" version as the other versions have 2/4 track playback heads in one. I want to fix up 2 of them really nice and sell the remaining 4 so I'm not tripping over them anymore :)
Hi, Dave:Sounds like you have a very firm grip on recording work and gear, which is very impressive, to say the least!
With ribbons, GAIN is the issue, apparently.
BTW, people have said some very favorable things about the Peluso line of microphones. I happen to like and use Milabs, however, mostly for classical (chamber) work. The MBHO 603 cardioids I own are another decent choice in my opinion.
I just wanted to see what these restored B&O ribbon BM-4's would do for me. On piano, with a little extra EQ, they sound magnificent! It is the level of noise which is bothersome. I do not build gear at all, but if I must, I will probably think in terms of purchasing the AEA Ribbon Mic Pre to see what can be done about this matter, or otherwise, just sell my B&Os. I own a pair of BM-4's and a single BM-3, all restored by Steve Sank.
Thanks again!
Cheers and happy recording!
Its amazing how good these late 1950s Shure 300s can sound also. I put them both close in front of one of my ESLs and swept with a signal generator and they were still mostly within a DB of each other. My Dad had purchased these new in the late 50's.
Hi, Dave:Weren't the Shure 300's originally marketed for the purpose of voice work? Hey, if it works, it works!
It was the 330 that really got used for voice aps (like Johny Carson).
They sound amazingly smooth for recording un-amplified instruments, really clean midrange...
They do have a built in Music/Voice filter switch than when set to Music it has a fairly straight response from 40hz to 15khz.
They also had a model 315 which was a scaled down version that was more suitable for Voice only.I added a link about them...
Thanks again, Dave!What do you use for recording preamps these days, especially with the Shure Bros. 300 ribbons?
Just curious!
"I have high hopes for these modified Apex units."Been working the same idea myself. Not much of the original Apex left in mine - Peluso edge terminated capsule, shunt regulated and CCS'd 6072, Peerless output transformer, new wire, GAC cable, Teflon caps, Schottky rectifiers, modded grill, constrained layer damping tape on the frame, modded iso mount, etc., etc.
So far it's been an interesting project. Might be worthwhile to compare notes off the forum.
Before someone subjects that last pic to too much scrutiny, the mic has the stock center terminated (oops, did I say POS?) capsule in it. This is a pic of the current iteration with the Peluso capsule, trying to absorb some warmth and resolution from a neighboring Brauner VMA. That VMA is awesome.
You're a bit further along on the 460's than I am as I am still waiting on some parts but yes I'd love to compare notes especially when I get a bit further into these.
Hi, shpickering:My experience, of late, has been quite positive as regards quality and playability of old pre-recorded 4-track open reel items.
I recently acquired a pile of interesting tapes, most of which were manufactured at the dawn of the 4-track medium. Thus far, they all play flawlessly on my A-77-III ReVox.
Mind you, I have put a chunk of leader on all of these tapes before even considering playing them.
Not much oxide has been shedding and I have not experienced any "sticky-shed" syndrom, mainly since they were manufactured before 1967 or so.
No splices, no major dropouts and unbelievable sound for what it is worth!
Anybody who does not vouch for the playability of actual condition of a vintage open reel pre-recorded tape has no business trying to sell them on eBay or anywhere else, in my opinion.
I would certainly NOT do that sort of thing.
I am now considering offering my tapes on the classified option for postings hereabouts, so look for them in the very near future.
It's amazing to consider how well a nearly 50-year-old tape can sound these days and we are not even speaking of 2-tracks here, just 4-tracks! I'll also bet that most of the ones I have been auditioning were duplicated in real-time on Ampex 350 machines, according to some of the labels on the boxes. That explains things a bit!
And most have no audible high frequency losses even after 50 years. Truly amazing! Reel to Reel offers the largest soundstage, deepest bass and the fullest sound of any format out there in my opinion.Next time it comes up for bid get Martin Denny's Exotica on Liberty / Bel Canto real time duplicated (1:1) Reel to Reel you will be absolutely floored.
Another ear wakening experience is comparing any of Columbia's non-Columbia House 7 ½ IPS Reel to Reels (MQ and CQ) to their LP or SACD versions. Forget the Columbia House editions (1R1) these range from poor to so-so. The early ones made for sale in stores will blow the LP versions clean out of the water!
Hi, Teresa!Thanks very much!
You know, much as I can appreciate Martin Denny and his bird sounds, etc., I was around when this sort of material was much the "Big Deal" in audiophile circles.
I did not like it then and I still do not like it much, no matter how "exotic" it sounds.
Now, Arthur Lyman is another example, as is/was Esquivel.
"Bachelor Pad" music! Great for some, but not for all, you know!
If I want "exotic", I just listen to my own live recording of "RARA AVIS", from last November 14th at the Berkeley Arts Center. I just sit back and distrub the neighbors. No birds to leave droppings on my living room floor, either!
http://www.raraavis.ca/index.html
Massive percussive sounds combined with "prepared" Baroque recorder?
How strange it is! Talk about dynamic range? PLENTY! WAY beyond the capabilities of capturing this sort of performance on analog media without massive amounts of limiting and compression. I got away with it, though, using a simple pair of MBHO cardioids through my Aphex 1100 mic pre to an Alesis Masterlink at 24/96. Got plenty of headroom that way!:-)
Dig those sounds!
BAWK!
It's all in the physics.
Why people opt to buy [used] prerecorded tapes is utterly lost on me, especially with the amount of vinyl and CD that's out there. I would venture to guess that most if not all prerecorded R2R tapes from the 60's and 70's were (like most subsequent cassette issues) recorded on substandard stock. In other words, even BACK THEN the cheaper grade tapes were used. So right from the word go, you have an uphill battle to face with quality and longevity issues. Add in to the mix an unknown number of owners, tape end damage, fingerprints, poor storage, etc, and it's not hard to surmise that buying those tapes is indeed very chancy at best. Frankly, with all of the unknowns and variables I just mentioned, it's not unrealistic to say that the odds are stacked very much against you getting a good tape.
But hey, to each their own.I'm glad that you got to achieve "better" sound via adjustable EQ on the deck. That might be the only complaint I have against my Teac X-2000R decks: they don't have it. They have adjustible BIAS, but as most of us know, that's only for recording and has no effect on playback. At least the earlier X-1000R has three settings: LHI, LHII, and EE. So that provides a little bit of room. I guess in situations like yours, that's when an outboard equilizer unit can really come in handy. Especially if you have the option of playing in mono. While doing that often compresses the depth and dynamic range, the trade off is a balanced sound with a lot of the hiss and dropouts getting cancelled out.
As far as your concern about the 1987 XLII-S, I wouldn't be too worried about it. I've had the same issue with that tape as well. From what I can tell, it is Maxells "highest" high-bias tape. I too have to reduce the bias by approx 3-4% on my Denon DN-790R to achieve a neutral sound when using that tape. But again, the downside to decreasing the bias is a lower threshold of distortion. If you find that you can't get a good balance, then you may wish to try using a different tape-such as a different version of XLII-S or even XLII or TDK SA, or whatever you find suits your needs. For what you are doing, an XLII-S is probably overkill anyway. The lesser tape might actually work to your advantage.
Now as far as your old tapes shedding and breaking, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that those are ACETATE and not polyseter tapes. Acetate is pretty much inflexible. At least polyester has some room to stretch. I would think that if a polyester tape was literally crumbling like you said, it saw storage and handling over the years that can only be described as abominable. It is also possible that the tapes were suffering from the dreaded "Sticky-Shed Syndrone". But you made no mention of the tapes acting sluggish or squealing when played. Had that been the case, there could've been an outside chance of *TEMPORARILY* "fixing" the tape long enough to run a "safety" dub by slow baking it. I've never encountered a tape that literally shed mounds of oxidw without also sticking as well. You definitely got stuck with a dog on that one.
And as for your cassette running out?Yup....been there many times. I know the frustration of being so close to the end and with maybe 10 seconds to go, see that supply hub turn from black to white. It is indeed a heart sinking feeling. Needless to say, I learned early on to measure the length of the material first, taking into account track spacing, possible variations in pitch, and so forth. Maybe you could squeeze it on that way. Or else use a C-100. Or if you don't need absolute perfection, if your "master" deck is so equipped, try speeding it up w/ the pitch just a little bit....maybe 1 or 2%. It will make little-if any audible difference in the sound. But when it comes down to needing that extra 30 seconds at the end of the blank, it will make all the difference in the world.
Thanks for sharing.
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