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In Reply to: Harbeth HL Compact 7ES-2 or Spendor SP 3/1p posted by FishMatisse214 on July 29, 2002 at 17:51:34:
Fish,Personally had the 3/1p for years and its a great great speaker. The Harbeth on the other hand like the HLP3es I is too sibilant for my taste because of the Seas tweeter. Along with the Totem Model 1 which I also owned and the Vienna Haydn which I also had.
Another candidate if you are looking for more bass is to get an Spendor S3/5 and mate it with the Rel Strata III Or the dedicated Sub 3 for the Spendor.
The Lavardin IS would be a super match with the Spendor 3/1p. But the S3/5 might need a bigger amp.
Follow Ups:
Hi,I own 3 Harbeths, the Monitor 30, P3ES and the older HL Compact (predesessor of the Compact 7ES). I do not encounter any sibilant issue on any of my Harbeths nor any Harbeths I've encountered from fellow friend's setups or show room setups in Singapore or Hong Kong.
The P3ES's tweeter response is less forgiving than others. The 19mm SEAS metal dome is very easy to sound bright when equipment, source or Cable are not optimum. It also take a long time to break in when it is new.
The newer P3ES-2 has a gold plated metal dome and from the review in the Hong Kong mag it is more transparent but slightly brighter than the previous P3ES. I can see a new condition P3ES-2 fit into the description, as it will take a hard 100 - 200 hours work out to sound optimum and a synergy match for the setup to sound its best.Regards
PS Yeo
but then again, everyone has a different perspective on 'sibilance'The more interesting comment was on the comparison between the P3ES vs. the KEF Cresta 2, where the latter did not (on Charles' account) exhibit sibilance. Maybe some healthy investigation in that direction may help to explain the issue at hand.
just my opinions
The issue here is not sibilance but a brighter tweeter that will aggravate recordings with a lot of sibilance.
hi,
i would be slighty apprehensive to attribute the sibilance directly on the SEAS tweeter without careful and controlled testing (not just auditioning).regards.
All I'm saying is that a more tipped-up tweeter can produce more s's when it's present in the recording. The "Snow Rose" CD has been citede as a good example. No doubt this can be compensated by choosing the right gear for the P3 as others may have said. The P3 is a modern design meant to replace the LS 3/5a. Soundwise, both models have quite an exposed tweeter but with the LS, it is more linear (creating the impression it is mellower) in the highs. The LS, just like the P3 in comparison to the Spendor S3 (which has slightly more treble energy because they are less attenuated in the highs than the S 3/5) needs careful pairing. Interestingly, all these later models are a spin-off of the LS 3/5a but does not quite get the sound that has endeared the LS to its fans and followers. That said, I guess anyone could not go wrong with any of these speakers, but many will slightly differ in their opinions (that's what's going on almost all the time in the AA) depending on how "well informed" one's taste might be.
that's a new one for Harbeth speakers! :)Any information on the speaker positioning and listening position?
I heard a demo pair at a shop in Hong Kong using Burmester amps driving the tiny P3ES, on vocals like "Snow Rose" it was more sibilant than I wanted it to be.Anyhow I never owned these so I never had the chance to set them up so I would not know.
However, on different speakers like the kef cresta, I did not notice that sibilance.
hi,Was the Cresta 2 hooked to the same Burmester amp?
For others, any comment on the "Snow Rose" recording?
Hi there,Both Cresta 1 (black) and HLP3ES were hooked to the same amp.
I was complaining to the salesman about the too much sssss or sibilance of the 3ES and I thought that the Burmester amp was the one doing it to the sound. In a defensive way, he installed the Cresta and the sibilance disappeared using the same disc and ancilliaries.
Again, I would like to mention that I have not heard the 7ES so I'm not going to comment on it. All I heard is the 3ES and its sibilance disturbed me.
Yes I was going to buy it but in the end, decided not to because of it.
Cheers,
Charles
"Snow Rose" is a female vocalist from HK singing "karaoke" sentimental love songs, extremely popular audiophile recording (not my type though). Very natural-sounding, was a favorite in hifi shops for demo. It became so popular that HK guys finally released it on vinyl too.Maybe the Harbeths are not burned in or needed to be closer to the wall ?
No, it's more likely either the amp or the fact that the guy's used to Spendor sound, which is softer and warmer overall, especially the S 3/5's, which though very fine speakers are not as clear, open, and direct in the 8kHz to 12kHz region as the Harbeth HP3's.
I see ... just found it unusual, since the CD is a warm-sounding one, very "romantic" ...BTW, just curious, what's the best way to know which is the actual frequency being heard ? I only have the following => http://psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html. Is there a more comprehensive chart with more instruments covered ?
I really never bother about which frequency range is playing, I just listen to the music as a whole. Even with review measure test results, I don't read the figures, just the explanations. But it would be a nice guide to have and will come in handy ...
TIA
it is in fact VERY important to have a very good reference of relating the frequency ranges to the sound we're hearing.Here's a pretty simple one (the required link is within the link)
typical audio reference books should also have one (at least) of those too.
hope it helps.
Thanks, very good link :)But IMHO, it is not at all important to know the frequencies by heart, unless someone starts talking to you in figures, then it would be handy. Throughout my audiophile life, nobody I know talks in figures (except when checking out how low a speaker's specs will go), nobody.
In any case, it is hard to believe someone for example who says "there is a suckout in the 100hz region" without doing any measurement, unless he starts it with "I think" or "I believe". Then the next question is "now what the heck is this guy talking about regarding 100hz" ? Then the table comes in handy. But if the person in the first place said it in plain audiophile english, then no problem. Like if a reviewer reviewed a product and started spouting frequency ranges throughut the review without explaining, I'm sure readers will just be frustrated.
problem is that 'audiophile terms' tend to have a range of meanings in terms of intensity. e.g my 'bright sounding = your 'neutral' etc. etc. Hence the point of reference is not as well established, in my opinion, as quoting a frequency range, where a number is a number, which eventually could be measured. The only point of contention is 'what' is 100Hz? and how to hear for it? Some proper guidance may help here.To mention a 'suckout of 100Hz' without a reference to the room and the listening position is quite meaningless as well.
You're right, measurements are a good gauge. Unfortunately, the end result of music is not based on measurement alone, and as I mentioned, majority of people don't care and are clueless. And I guess that's one of the reasons the audiophile dictionary came about ? Rather than educate people to talk in frequncy ranges ? And the figures alone mean they are a measurement, so there is really no point talking about exact figures if it's not measured with the proper tools, unless one states it in a range of frequencies or an appproximate.
Anyway, we are back to subjective opinions. In the example above, one says "a system is sibilant" and Bob says "a peak at the 8Khz to 12Khz region, but is in fact accurate". It still boils down to what one hears and what one prefers, which Bob also pointed out ... it may be accurate to one, and another thinks it's a distortion. Like tube amps can have so many measured distortions, but they can still output very nice music. Probably inaccurate by measurement standards, but I'm sure beguiling to many and considered as "real-sounding, accurate".Can't please everyone really, and as a Naimie, I've learned to be more broad-minded about this, especially because of the cliche "you either like it or not". We respect the opinion of others ... and they can slam Naim any way they like ... :-)
A very fair question. I had a chart once that gave me some idea, which may be what you've got here - I haven't checked it yet. I generally listen first, take notes, then see if I can get some poor math-type to do the meaurements. Or not.I've had the S 3/5's and HP3's in my house for the last couple of weeks, gathered my impressions, then had the good fortune to get into a conversation with Jeff Stake in Indiana who happened to have both on hand as well and did the measurements. When I saw the HP3's a couple of dB's above the 3/5's in the 8-12 hKz region, I then "knew" what I had only heard before! I am speculating that that's what you're hearing. Whether or not it's sibilance, is another question. I very much doubt that - and if it is sibilance, it's not likely it's the Harbeths that are at fault. I say that not as a Harbeth booster but as someone who had listened carefully to most of their line and wouldn't up with sibilance, anymore than Allan Shaw would!
Again, the HP3's are more immediate and direct sounding in the uppermost reaches of the "presence" region than the S 3/5's are. From around 80 to 400, the 3/5's are a dB or two above the HP3's, which complements their (comparative) warmth in the treble, producing an overall warmer, cozier sound, which some folks prefer.
Bob,Sorry but I heard a direct comparison with the 3ES and Cresta in that store using same ancilliaries and cd. If its not the speakers that is doing the sibilance then it might be some other factors like cables, cd player, etc. But given on the same instance the Cresta's did not ssss, then I can almost be sure its the 3ES. I heard what I have heard and am telling what I have heard. If that bothers people, maybe you ought to try to source that cd and listen to yourself.
Charles,Just as a suggestion, it might be interesting to check out the measurements of the KEF Cresta (and make sure the treble end of the scale is properly expanded for clarity!)
I got a couple of friends who did have the "Snow Rose" recording and they did find it slightly on the sibilant side. But I was hesitant to comment on that further because with different systems, different recordings sound different and as Bob had said, you may have been used to a particular sonic presentation prior to your experience with Harbeths.
nt
Talking about CD's, I heard a favorite CD of mine in Hongkong thru the HL P3. It's not one of those audiofile kind, but I knew how it sounded on my Tangent MOnitor Six using Kef tweeters, and my S 3/5 using Vifas. Bob's right! You would find the P3 more direct, more direct to your ears than the mellower Vifas. Some people may like a more tipped up treble, exposed a little bit. This is specially true for those above 50 years of age. I didn't find the Harbeth P3 at that exposed level to give me a sweeter more endearing treble. The P3's treble is in the likes of the Totem 1, which has sibilance problems. That goes for the Haydn too to some extent. And they all use Seas tweets. Correct me if I'm wrong, aluminum! And they sounded like it.The Kef tweeters which are textile dome on my Tangent image very well and are open as any Harbeth P3, but does not have the shrilly sharpness on some program material like the P3 in the example above. In fairness to the Harbeth sound, careful mating with ancilliaries is a must.
Thanks, that clarifies it further ...Incidentally, great system you have there ... the CDS2 is definitely the best CD player I've heard yet, totally in control. And I was just speaking with one guy today who is so enamored by the Nordost Valhalla speaker cables, but feeling sad that he had to order 5 meter pairs due to his positioning :)
Yes!Was hoping you'll say that :)
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