|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
I would like to hear from owners or those who have critically listened to this sub. My listening is 99% music (classical--large and small scale-- and jazz); the sub would be paired with GR Research Paradox-1 monitors.
Follow Ups:
I just got one of these, a couple weeks ago today as a matter of fact. I would say sam9 has summed things up quite well and agree with everything he has said exactly. Ironically I am using the Paradox 1's as well, and rest assured this sub works quite well with them.I bought it for music use only, but will use it on the occasion for movies (rare). Honestly, this sub is "for real" and does perform well beyond it's price as sam9 said. Being a kit from "Parts Express" I think it makes one wonder. The plate amp, the braced enclosure, the driver, it's all very good quality.
I listen to about the same type of music you do and the sub supplements the low frequencies quite well, in a very well mannered way, with colorful, tight, musical bass. I have it connected to my amp via a speaker level connection, have it crossed over at the lowest 40Hz setting and am using a better power cord too. As sam9 explained, the success of a well integrated sub into a system is based on careful placement and the room itself (treatments). For the past couple weeks I have been trying to dial in the right blend, as I have pretty much found the right spot for it in my room.
I think I about have the sub dialed in now. Last night I got out my Radio Shack meter and Stereophile test CD2 and took some measurements again (which by the way helps a lot in assisting placement and dialing in) and found it has usuable output at 25Hz, down about 3 decibals at 27 Hz, near flat at 31.5 Hz. I happen to have a 50Hz bass peak in my room and so even though I had the xover set to 40Hz it still output a good amount of volume at 50, 63 and 80Hz but then tailed off quickly thereafter. That is one real nice thing about the REL's, that you can cutoff the bass output lower than 40Hz and their xover's use a steep 24dB slope, compared to the 12dB slope of the Titanic sub, which can help curtail the bass output above the xover setting much quicker. So like most subwoofer's in most rooms that are untreated (mine is not properly treated), the Titanic will overlap the bass output of the Paradox 1's somewhat but does not impede into the upper bass and certainly not the midrange at all. However, if you have heard a sub, within the confines of it's capabilities that is well integrated into a system, you'd know that you really don't hear the sub at all and begin to wonder if it is even set up right. Linear bass, or even somewhat linear bass, down to 25Hz or so, is hard for some people to grasp because you can hardly hear it at all- people want to hear the thump. Even with the overlap I have now it's not really a glaring impedement, the Titanic sounds quiet, clean and so tight where it needs to down low that it's not a real problem. It's presentation of bass down low is fantastic with music.
It's not only the bass that will improve, you will notice that when you have the Titanic dialed in that the rest of the spectrum will improve as well. I was blown away at how much more open, more dimensional and cleaner the sound became when I replaced my older powered sub with the Titanic. Stand up bass suddenly occupies a defined areas of space, piano sounds fuller and lays out in space more easily.
For the money it has got to be hard to beat. My guess is the REL's and the ACI's would outperform them in absolute terms but I'd have a hard time imagining the "quality" of the bass from this sub could be embarrassed. One note on installing the spikes that sam9 brought up. Parts Express started having the manufacturer of the enclosures pre-install the T-nuts into the enclosures so the customer does not have to do this. It literally took me 5 minutes to install the spikes now, where in sam9's case I bet it would be tricky.
I definitely recommed this sub, very hard to beat for the money.
I want to add to your comments on set up. My mains are Magnepan MMGs. With those I expected the appropriate crosover point would be 50-60Hz. Since I lucked onto an pro type audio spectrum analyzer on e-bay ($300) last year I was able to get a better look at room response and found that the hest crossover point was 40hZ - as low as it can be set.I mention this not to advise setting every XO that way but to caution that one should not put to much faith in the markings on XO, phase or volume knobs. Also to be aware that condition in a specific room can moot expectations. A RadioShack SPL and a test disk are a small investment with a big payoff. If one can borrow, rent, otherwise obtain a good RTA the process is easier still.
With a sub it's always a Catch 22. Most rooms have a peak in the bass around 50-80 Hz, and they usually are quite large peaks. Loading the sub in a corner usually heps reinforce bass fequencies down around 20-30Hz, you need the room to help boost the response down there. The problem with that is you boost all bass frequencies and if you have a big peak in the bass already then it's just amplified all that more. So you turn the volume down to reduce the peak but then you are throwing off the response way down in the very low bass, you can't win. Moving the sub around the room helps but usually is fruitless in the end, you always end up trading off something for another- less deep bass for smoother mid bass for example. Room treatments, like bass traps are a good solution here.The xover in the Titanic plate amp might well be very accurate, though it's said that the filters in plate amps are not all that accurate but still not grossly inaccurate. Let's say you find a good spot in the room with dialed in settings that gives you pretty flat response from 25Hz to 40Hz and you have the xover set at 40Hz. Even though the roll off begins here at a slope of 12dB per octave, because of huge peak in the bass within your room around 50-60 Hz (not uncommon to see as much as 15-20 dB peaks) you are still going to have a large peak in the bass above the xover setting. It's easy to blame the internal xover and it's accuracy but if you look at what's going on here via measurements it's easier to see. Subs are a massive pain in the ass.
Treating the room is the best solution. But still, I can only imagine that the convenience of a 24dB per octave xover with adjustable filter settings below 40Hz would be quite ideal.
With ALL that said, I still feel that if one were to acquire very linear and flat bass from say 80Hz down to 20Hz you'd be darn surprised at how naked and lifeless the bass would sound. Bass is a wierd thing. Reasonably boosted bass that might not "measure" ruler flat can be more satisfying when listeing to music oddly enough.
I have a Behringer 8024 on order. Based on the experiences of others that may be an bettter, though costlier solution than monkeying with the resistors in the box. Suppossedly, it avoids a lot of the negatives associated with conventional analog EQs.
Anyone want to buy a Paradigm PDR-10 used, cheap???
I've had one for six months. Soundwise I think it is comparable to anything under ~$800. Better than many. Like any sub, the key to how good it sounds is placement in the room and acoustic properties of the room. In this regard, if you have budget constraints the price for this unit is more important than just saving money - it leaves you funds for bass traps or other acoustic mods to your room or even some equalization if you are inclined. It's my experience (limited, I admit)that in the typical living room a modest sub with good acoustic treatment will sound better than a much more expensive sub simply stuck out of the way in an ordinary room.Now to specifics: It plays pretty deep but by no means is flat down to 20hz. However, it is a sealed box design. This means that as long as you don't overload the amp, the speaker can handle substantial equalization so the potential to go flat and deep is there if you are inclined. BTW, on the parts express website the is information on how to change a couple of resistors internally to modify the built in equalization.
In a large room you might find it doesn't play loud enough. Depends on what you consider load. In mine 14"x16" the volume level had to very atenuated to match my speakers, so it is more than loud enough for me.
It is not as big as some subs, but is a far cry from a Sunfire. Be sure you want a large black cube sitting in you room. It is not unattractive, but a work of visual art it ain't.
Assembly is very easy. If you can assemble a knockdown book case you can manage this. EXCEPT for the the cone points. If you dismiss the notion cone point improve the sound, then it's not worth the effort to install them. Just plug the holes on the bottom (they must be plugged or you won't have a sealed enclosure.) If you want the cones, I suggest you proceed very slowly and deliberately. At the first sign of difficulty stop and think through the problem. (The problem is that you can't see what you are doing on the inside of the box and it is extremely difficult to keep the T-nuts from turning and eating a groove in the MDF.)
Anyway, I recomend this sub as havinf performance way beyond the price.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: