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I am in the market for a pair of speakers in the $12K (or less) range. I have a ML383 int. amp., ML390S CD player and a room that approx 275-300 sq ft. I'm looking for: excellent detail and resolution, excellent imaging and transparency (speakers that "dissappear"), solid and quick bass response (that reaches into the 20S, even if it just reaches there); strong performance accross the spectrum; neutral sounding speakers. For this price, I really want something that has no apparent weakness. As such I am considering Audio Physic Avanti IIIs (& maybe Virgos); Wilson Sophias; and Dynaudio Confidence C2s. I've heard the Confidence C4s and loved them, but haven't heard the C2s yet. Has anyone heard the C2s? Are there any obvious ommissions in my small list? Any thoughts/advice/ideas you have would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.
Follow Ups:
You might consider the following speakers: VMPS RM 40, Aerial Acoustics 8b or Von Schweikert VR 5.
Better sound plus less money. Decisions don't come much easier than this.Kevin
Putting the VMPS RM-40 in this catagory is like racing a VW in the Indy 500.Get real. The Kharma and Piegas are the best alternatives given the existing electronics. Sound Labs are great, but you will need some massive monos to enjoy them.
The RM40's would be the indy, the others would be the VW's....dont believe me? Because of the price tags? Add up the price of the drivers, crossover networks, etc? The RM40's will yield parts costly many multiples of the speakers you listed. So where does your $$ go with the ones you listed??.....answer marketing and profit and hoopla.
Hello Dooley. You say I should get real. Well, it can't get any more "real" than this:I was in the market for speakers (as well as most other components). My wife and I were building a new home. My budget for speakers was $16,000. I listened to all the "usual suspects" from $10K up to that price (Thiel, Vandersteen, Martin-Logan, B & W, Sonus Faber, Wilson), as well as 4 other manufacturers in "serious auditions" (Avantgarde, Eggleston, Gershman Acoustics, Revel). Note I heard 15 - 16 more in "casual auditions", including one of your "Indy cars".
Well, after a year and a half, I had decided on Gershman Acoustics. Not just in my head, but through several phone calls with Ofra Gershman, I had come to a "deal". She even sent snapshots of the various finishes for me to select from. She was a pleasure doing business with. This was in January, 2002.
My home wasn't completed until May. In February, I "discovered" VMPS. I had numerous phone conversations with Brian Cheney. I couldn't have been more impressed. When I started asking for information about two of his speakers in that price range, he steered me to the RM40s instead (a third of the cost). This goes against the grain of "Business 101". And it's not like he's having trouble moving RM40s - they are selling like hot cakes.
In the end, I switched from the Opera Sauvage to the RM40s (to mate with KORA amps). It sounds crazy, but after going through 18 months of auditioning, I went with a speaker I couldn't audition, and had never heard down here in Tampa. Of course, after I made my decision, a dealer opened up 4 hours from here - oh well. They sound wonderful.
If you think this is a bunch of bull, go read some of my historical posts on Harmonic Discord. It's all there for the world to see.
I assume you take your stance because you're sure no speaker costing $5,800 (with TRT caps) could possibly compete with $12,000 speakers. After all, there's no free rides, and you get what you pay for, right? However, I also assume you've never heard the RM40s.
It's fine - I understand your position. And without opinions, this board would not be worth coming to.
Well Dooley, is this "real" enough for you??
Kevin
Excuse me, but did KHARMA's win CES ??
Why wouldnt you put RM 40's in this class ?
Piega's I havent heard, but Kharma's???
sorry Romy, I guess I was being too defensive, sorry
Be more specific Romy, are you trolling ??
Your post implies to me that you dont believe I am who I say I am, is THAT what you are saying??
What kind of a post is this ?
I've got the same discription.I think someone from the bored filled in
the blanks *automagicaly*.
Can't disagree more; I owned Wilson WATT/Puppy 6's for two years and recently upgrades to the VMPS RM-40's w/TRT caps.I'm running Levinson No. 380S and No.333 with SACD front end and Silver Audio cabling. MUCH better sound in all respects than the Wilson's.
It looks like this may be the case. I have 40`s on order with the Auricap upgrade. Think I made a good choice.
I think that statement is always hard to make as it is practically impossible to listen to them all, even just the highly regarded ones but I have yet to find someone who has heard the RM40's and thinks another <$20K speaker sounds better, certainly I haven't. I have heard the usual suspects of Wilson, ML, Revel, Thiel, Dyn (probably my favorite cone speaker, but much different than RM's), ProAc, JMLabs, etc.
If you want detail, resolution, imaging and tranparency; although not on your list, I'd recommend the Martin Logan Odessy or Soundlab M-1. You should do yourself a favor and at least audition them.
Regards, Jerry O.
It might sound OK, but I think it would be far short from living up to the best it could deliver with the ML amp. The Martin Logan would likely fare better.
I have a customer who got very satisfying results from a larger Mark Levinson amp, so the only significant limitation I'd forsee is in maximum volume. A Martin Logan hybrid would probably play louder with the same amplifier, but the basic sonic advantages of Sound Lab's large, full-range panels wouldn't be lost.Of course it would depend on what NBR's listening priorities are, and if fairly high volume is a priority, then he'd need to consider alternative amplification if he wanted to do the Sound Labs (there are some rather affordable amps that work quite well with the Sound Labs).
I was using my Electrocompaniet ECI-4 integrated (pretty well in-line
with the ML 383 in terms of power output) with my SoundLab Pristine II speakers. The available ultimate output was a bit too restrained for my wife's tastes. The Innersound ESL amp proved a whole 'nother creature and does just fine (though the Soundlabs are still/will be banished to my listening room while N805s driven by the ECI-4 have their way in the living room).
Also consider the Coincident Speaker Technology Total Eclipse and the Total Victory. These speakers are probably better suited to tube amps, both were voiced using tubes, but I suspect they would also be superb with your ML gear.
.
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I woukd look at the Vandersteen 5. No real weakness and with the bass controls you have a lot of adjustment to suit your room. Very natural full and detailed image. Hard to beat at the price
Vandy 5 is great speaker. I own a pair. But before you decide make sure your dealer will come to your place and set them up with a real time analyzer. The in-home service is supposed to be part of the dealer agreement with Vandersteen but because it takes a lot of time, not all the dealers are willing to do it. If yours won't, you better look for something else because it is almost impossible to adjust the subs yourself.
NBR,It is OK to expect “no apparent weakness” after spending so much money … but as you know the High End works in the mystery ways…
The speakers you and others already have proposed (and knowing the crowd… I feel will be proposed) I would not put in my list ”the best buy for $12K”. I would give to you an absurd lead … but, who knows, you might find it worth to explore.
You probably are familiar with Kharma speakers. They are pompous, pretensions, with a wonderful publicity, “good reviews” but for any serious demands they dod not sound seriously. I do not like them… even their top models. However, Kharma have one very interesting model which is do not have a lot of attention but in fact delivers an EXTREMELY interesting result. I do not remember the model name but it is fairly small, the only 2-way model. (I believe it calls “Kharma 3”) That speaker have VERY accurate and VERY well-balanced sound. They do not go very low.. and this is good. I could go more and more abut them but I would defiantly look for them if I were on $12K market
I think that their retail price somewhere around $17K .. but this is a retail price. The street price could be lower and particularly at the contemporary market. I never have seen them used.
Please be advised that those speakers will be more capable then you amplification and if you get to try them then your ML will be the weakest element of the chain.
Good luck,
The Cat
Romy,why do you not recommend to evaluate a Avantgarde Uno (or Duo) in this price range?
Just curious,
Manfred
they went for much less than $17k...more like $6.5k when initially introduced. I have heard the Ceramique 3 several times and agree with your assessment--they are very well balanced with an almost seemless integration between the drivers. Kharma has upgraded the Ceramique line to .1 and .2 models with upgraded crossover components, wiring & internal damping; I'm not sure what a 3.1 or 3.2 goes for now but I would guess less than $17k.I'm not sure what amplification was used when you heard the 3's (Lamm is often used in demos, and I think I remember from reading a previous post of yours that you like Lamm), but I myself would be hesitant to recommend any of the Ceramique speakers with ML solid state electronics. I think they really need tube amplification to avoid sounding too analytical.
nt
Is that for the 3.1 or Reference Monitor 3.2?
nt
Well, if they somewhere around $7K then it only ads the “weight” to them… and of course you are correct to be “hesitant to recommend any of the Ceramique speakers with ML solid state electronics”… or I would say… "hesitant to recommend any speakers with ML solid state electronics".By the way, it would be interesting: were do you feel the difference between your Eidolons and the Kharma Ceramique 3. (Beside some advanced soundstageing tricks that the Eidolons can perform)
Rgs,
The Cat
I haven't heard the Eidolon's and Ceramique 3's in the same system, although I have heard each extensively in my two separate systems. But with that caveat, generally speaking the Eidolon's are much more muscular and hefty on bottom, almost effortless on dynamic contrasts, as accomplished in the midband as the 3's, and as you noted do some spectacular soundstaging tricks. I would be hard pressed to say the 3's do anything better than the Eidolons, but as I said I haven't them both in the exact same system/room.I really like the Ceramique 3's, but ended up getting the Ceramique 1's over them because the 3's just didn't have enough weight on the bottom for me. I don't consider myself a bass freak by any stretch, but I would say the 3's start rolling off somewhere around 50Hz, and the bass was a just a tad whoolly compared to the 1's. You do lose a bit of the driver coherence going to the 3-way Ceramique 1's (and I would definitely take the 3's over the middle child Ceramique 2's, which are a three-way that isn't much more meaty down low than the 3's), but I listen mostly to orchestral music, and the loss of the bottom foundation of the orchestra was just too much for me to give up. If the 3.1 or 3.2 models improve on that aspect, I would suspect they would certainly be among the top speakers in their class.
Actually I meant to ask you to avoid the “bass issues” but I forgot to write it down in my question. I am one of those guys who believe that better do not have any bass then to have it improperly implemented. Ceramique 3 dose not go very low and it is VERY good. (The bottom should be implemented by different means anyway.) Ceramique 3's stops at very the reasonable point considering the typical room applications, a way the port used and many others reasons. The monitors should not do deeper then 50-70Hz. The Eidolon’s attempt to go lower actually was a mistake and it screwed them up. I understand why the Eidolon’s parents did that “fast but oily” bass. They should stop to target the Eidolons to the Spectral market and stop to “bassolubricate” that easy-sellable High Resolution BS. I find the Ceramique 3 results are more interesting then Eidolon or at least the 2-way Ceramique has fewer problems. I just can’t believe that they went form $6.5K to $17K.
they are indeed good.i've also heard the big one ( looked like a cockroach
on steroids ) and looked to me like they were having a bad hair day.
Yes, they were 2-way, floor-standing; relatively limited highs and they are way more interesting than their more expansive and larger 3-ways brothers. Very-very good balanced speakers!
...but the stock market has really hurt me, too
- This signature is two channel only -
I'm going to second that Piega P10. $10,000 retail 120000 with piano finish. They are absolutely an outstanding all around performer. Before you buy, go and listen for yourself. See why Jonathon Valin of Stereophile, who's newest reference speaker is the P10. I'm also a big fan of VMPS....
Seems like there are only 2/3 dealers in US. Any idea where they can be heard in NY/NJ/CT area?
Sanibel Sound, I think is out of New Jersey. They do have a website. Or try www.piega.com. Their website will give you the name of the rep here in the US. BTW, i own a pair of piega P2s and I think they're wonderful. My goan is in the next couple of years is to buy a pair of the P10s. Good Luck with your search, and if you get a chance to hear a pair, report back on this board. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion...
Thanks,
Joe
Check out the large VMPS FF1 SRE's. Little brother won best of show at CES, and the smaller FF3 I read from Absolute sound saying it's the best they'd ever heard at the CES. Also once you hear the quality of the ribbons you won't go back to dynamic drivers. VMPS is known for of the best bass in the industry also. Good Luck
I heard both at the home of Brian Cheney, the designer/manufacturer. The RM-40 included the $1200 Moncrief capacitor upgrade. As Brian acknowledges, the FF-3 SRE sounds much cleaner, partly because its external wedge-shaped foam behind the ribbon midrange drivers provides better damping of the rear wave.
hmmm... as i'm considering a kit version of the rm-40's, i wonder if there's room behind the midrange/tweeter enclosures for blackhole-5...doug s.
Although I might be inclined to suggest sticking with the RM40's (Best of Show @ CES) and getting the John Moncrief TRT Cap upgrade and then an optional veneer all at $6200. You don't have to biamp the RM40's and the 383 should be able to handle it no probs, if not biamping with a cheap/used pro amp on bass would yield phenomenal results. I have heard the Sophia's and I own the nonTRT version of the RM40's (w/ opt veneer). No contest! Seriously, none, not just picking on wilson, as I think they are better than they often get credit for despite being expensive. However the VMPS newer ribbon monitors are hard to beat at any price. Certainly with your components I dont think you could do better.
Maybe the Joseph Audio RM33si. They require a fair amount of power for a large room, but give excellent bass response and easily compare to the Sophias. They are too good to dismiss without an audition. If there's no dealer in your area, contact Jeff Joseph to arrange to listen to a pair.
Cheers,Graham
"Blue meters, big watts. This must be Heaven!"
I would recommend that you audition the Maggie 20.1 (if you have the room) and the Piega P10.My gut tells me that the Piega's would be more synergestic with your gear, and the 4 ohm rating would yield better headroom/power 200 RMS into 4 Ohms? The Maggies are great, but need serious power to really open up.
The Piega's do disappear and they love solid state amplifiers of great quality...they also extend flat into the 25Hz area.
Good Luck.
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