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38.116.2.4
A friend just spiked his Vienna Acoustics Bachs, and reported to me that the treble became too hot. I've not heard this result before.He's in an apartment, with concrete floors that are covered with medium thickness wall-to-wall carpet.
He calmed down the hot treble by putting the metal discs under each spike (the ones that come with spikes in case you are resting the speakers on hardwood floors). This seems sub-optimal to me, because the metal discs rest on the rug, which is now preventing a rigid/solid spike to the floor.
Thoughts?
Follow Ups:
I'm assuming spikes an inch or two tall.Spikes could prevent a buzzing/rattling sound from a wood speaker enclosure resting on a wood floor, but that's not actually the speaker's frequency response.
I use two speaker stand spikes (two on front of stands only) to tilt back my speakers. That makes the tweeters slightly off axis relative to my ears, and slightly further from my ears. Using spikes in that way does affect a tweeters frequency response.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Your statement is only correct when the speakers are considered. Given that spikes fundamentaly affect the vibration feedback loop to other components, spiking speakers will have a major effect of frequency response in the same way that adding isolation devices or racks to a system will change its frequency response characteristics.
This would be easy to measure.However I know of no measurements showing changes in frequency response from spikes, especially a "major" effect as you claim.
Maybe you are imagining "major" frequency response changes because you expect them?
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One thing that will "mask" high end issues is a bloated mid bass
from drywall vibrationSpikes simply couple the loudspeaker to the floor/room
Since they were on concrete coupling is pretty much a non issue
because of the solidity of the concrete itselfYour going to cause the drywall to color the sound simply by
having the loudspeaker close to the wallThus.......moving the loudspeaker out away from wall will help
resolve this issueI am assuming these loudspeaker cabinets are pretty solid and if
not there is another issueMasking can fool anyone in freak response and what the listener
is actually hearing and experiencing
Sp[eakers should be spiked for maximum rigidity so they move as little as possible back and forth(Newton's laws). The problem is that then they usually feedback to the rest of the gear, the souceces and amps and these microphonics cause distortion that now goes to your speakers. The solution is to isolate everything else with as efficient decoupling as possible. You can spike your equipment stands but then you have to isolate each shelf or the equipment from the shelf.
I have carpet on concrete very similar to yours. My Linn Ninkas sound more natural without the spikes. I do have their updated bases with
add both weight and stability to the speaker.
It is a mixed bag though. Bass is tighter and focus is maybe a bit better with the spikes but again, minimally. The main grip with spikes is that vocals, especially female, had a hardened quality which is fatiguing. It was almost like you wanted to take a pick and chisel to get the liquid and open quality that was much better without the spikes. I would also say this is particularly true with 'not so good' recordings. Very little detail, if any, is sacrificed without the spikes. Perhaps like a previous poster said,
it shows issues with upstream components. Even if that is true,
you want the best sound for now, so let your ears be the guide.
Everything is very system dependent. I remember reading that
the Ayre CX-7 CD player sounded hard and edgy on the Naim Fraim(glass and metal) stand, but that it helps Naim equipment sound open
and free. (I know this digresses from speaker issues, but goes to show it can vary on the equipment, your ears, and your tastes).
While my answer is no, I have heard this happen in the past and it usually indicates that there is an issue upstream that is causing the problem and spiking the speakers just makes it more pronounced.Most of the time, it is poor AC quality but it can also result from lack of attention to component isolation or poor IC's and/or speaker cables that results in a peaky treble.
I would surmise that his Vienna Acoustics Bachs R just telling him the truth about his system.
JMHO of course,
and you can't diss concrete? just messing with ya!!Its pretty easy to prove just how detrimental it is to mate your speakers to a poured concrete sublfoor via factory spikes..this instantly leads to awful treble performance. you just have to listen...
what bites is that it improves other areas like the bass & actual imaging in terms of musician placement on our 'stages'. I battled this for about 3 years, finally wised up thanks to this forum.
if you haven't heard just how bad concrete is, you'll be in for a real surprise if you get the chance.
releasing my gear from the 'crete was a truly positive tweak.
"Its pretty easy to prove just how detrimental it is to mate your speakers to a poured concrete sublfoor via factory spikes..this instantly leads to awful treble performance. you just have to listen..."I have been spiking my speakers to the concrete slab for years now and always find an improvement over just setting them on the carpet although as i mentioned, it has led to an overbright/peaky treble in the past and the cause was AC related. Once that was resolved though, treble was sweeter than maple syrup :-)
I think the key words in your statement though are
"via factory spikes". I have my main speaker on short sand filled stands which R spiked to the concrete albiet the spikes are more like cones with a solid/machined construction and the stands have vibration absorbers applied to them via my own proprietary configuration.One could also put an interface between the spikes and the concrete floor to change the vibration transmission characteristics such as the products from Walker Audio which I want to try but have more pressing system priorities at the moment.
One also needs to remember that if the speaker spikes do not make intimate/solid contact on the concrete, whether this is due to a light speaker or poor spike interface, this can add a haze to the sound as the speaker is vibrating on the spike tips and this in turn resonates up into the speaker enclosure. This is one of the reasons that adding weight to the speaker enclosure has the effect of sharpening the image focus.
It's good to be king......LOL :-)
Cheers,
~kenster
it does make all the difference. most factory spikes are pitiful in regards to moving vibrations from the cabinets & draining into the floor...they are just made to keep the speaks from a rockin' - which is one piece to the puzzle for sure just not the whole picture.Factory spikes keep speaker vibrations trapped in the speaker. when these vibes hit the concrete i have a feeling its like an old telegraph signal going at the speed of sound 'SOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOSOS' and that AIN'T good... It would be OK to insert 'May Day, May Day' in place of SOS.
I didn't want to mention Mapleshade but i did want to mention Mapleshade!
Removing the spikes from my speakers was interesting & i found good & bad things with the set-up both ways during the quick A-B comps. In the long run there was no contest though. After removing the spikes from my Lovan rack it was a whole 'nother thing. My TT is so sweet & detailed & thorough now... After realizing concrete was toxic I moved onto MDF. Removing my gear from touching mdf AFTER getting it off 'crete was nothing short of amazing. 5 old ratty empty LP covers under my gear took care of the mdf issue handily.
The understanding that most surfaces were not designed/optimal for electronic gear was most illuminating and a big reason for much happiness in this hobby (without spending major $).
i contacted a few old guru types after the 'crete epiphany & they were all like 'yeah, it sucks...move on...get new speakers now' - as if it was another bit of hidden knowledge that everyone knows. its not debatable, but not in any textbooks either.
this weekend i demo'd a simple system in a home w/hardwood floors over poured concrete subfloors. this is a situation where concrete is more than welcome IMO.
This week i'm experiencing Hot Treble in a big way - I lent out my Room Tunes Tune Pak to a friend...an un-tuned (un-treated) room is quite inhospitable for critical or even casual listening. When the volume gets to a decent level the sound is just about awful, bright & fatiguing. Its amazing how much our rooms hurt the sound if you let them.
Your friend needs to get EVERYTHING that is spiked to the sub floor off, in a hurry. the toxic shit that concrete imparts on our gear, ears & brain is nasty as all get out.Once i unspiked my floorstanders and removed the spikes from my Lovan rack a sweet & detailed demeanor came out. My happiness with this hobby grew instantly. This was one of the fondest 'Ah ha!' moments i've had re: gear.
he should set everything right on the carpet initially & then tinker with other solutions. In his case, the carpet is a blessing.
Concrete is about the only situation where spiking is NOT recomended IMO. Maybe adding weight to the speakers elsewhere can keep them from rocking...or once they settle into the carpet & pad.
matt
I also removed spikes from my stands on concrete. Try to remove the spikes at all from the Viennas and let your ears decide. I also put a weight of 10Kg on the basis of each of the stands (probably you cannot with Viennas).
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