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In Reply to: Re: it's frequently cited in serious studies posted by KlausR. on April 21, 2007 at 07:56:30:
Hi Klaus,I need to do a better check: for now I just ran a quick Google search and found citations by people such as David Griesinger (of Lexicon), James Boyk (director of Cal Tech music lab and lecturer in its dept. of electrical engineering), and a bunch of faculty at psychology, music, and various tech depts. around the States(Berkeley etc.). Plus a co-authored piece in an audio engineering journal in Germany (which I can't recall now). These were all references that seemed to take the Oohashi et al. paper seriously. And then of course the references in Stereophile and other audio fora.
From my quick search I was not able to find any refutations of either the hypotheses or the research procedure, though that may be because the research questions simply haven't been adequately put to test yet. (Meaning it's just too hard to evaluate, apart from the test setup and methodology, but even they seemed fine at a quick glance.) What seemed to be a novelty in the Oohashi 2000 paper is that the audio clips were longer, as were the pauses in between them; the assumption being that certain physiological responses only become manifest rather slowly (compared to the usual few seconds done in audio tests) and have a correspondingly slower settling time afterwards (have a hang time).
I would think J of Neurophysiology must be quite a respectable publication in the field (of which I know nothing to be sure). There was moreover another paper by Oohashi in 2006 in Elsevier's Brain Research journal, 16 February 2006, in which the conclusions are that this HF effect with a bearing on listening preferences and manifest in brain function responses may not have anything to do with "the conventional air-conducting auditory system," since this effect was manifest "only when the listener's entire body surface was exposed to High Frequency Components, but not when HFC was presented exclusively to the air-conducting auditory system." (They used a loudspeakers vs. headphones type of a setup.)
Oohashi himself has a nice career behind him (from Wikipedia - ):
"He held positions such as Instructor at Tsukuba University, Professor at the National Institute of Multimedia Education, Professor at Chiba Institute of Technology, and General manager at the Department of KANSEI Brain Science, ATR Human Information Processing Research Laboratories. He is the President of the Yamashiro Institute of Science and Culture and the Director and chief researcher of the Foundation for the Advancement of International Science."
I just find this quite intriguing as a hypothetical issue. Not sure what the repercussions would be for audio design; there are just too many variables involved, even if Oohashi & co. are right. (The research reported in the J Neurophysiology issue was based on double blind testing and the results were statistically significant.)
More stuff to read, that is. What's your take on all this?
Follow Ups:
"I need to do a better check: for now I just ran a quick Google search and found citations by people such as David Griesinger (of Lexicon), James Boyk (director of Cal Tech music lab and lecturer in its dept. of electrical engineering), and a bunch of faculty at psychology, music, and various tech depts. around the States(Berkeley etc.). Plus a co-authored piece in an audio engineering journal in Germany (which I can't recall now). These were all references that seemed to take the Oohashi et al. paper seriously. And then of course the references in Stereophile and other audio fora."These are not the type of references that lend credibility to a study. These references are merely using the results/conclusions of the study to support or interpret their own interests and phenomena. What is singularly lacking is any independent duplication and confirmation of Oohashi's work. That does not mean it is wrong but, rather, that it is unconfirmed and no other competent neurophysiologists seem excited enough to do so.
"I would think J of Neurophysiology must be quite a respectable publication in the field (of which I know nothing to be sure). There was moreover another paper by Oohashi in 2006 in Elsevier's Brain Research journal, 16 February 2006, in which the conclusions are that this HF effect with a bearing on listening preferences and manifest in brain function responses may not have anything to do with "the conventional air-conducting auditory system," since this effect was manifest "only when the listener's entire body surface was exposed to High Frequency Components, but not when HFC was presented exclusively to the air-conducting auditory system." (They used a loudspeakers vs. headphones type of a setup.)"
This seems to be consistent with the strange results of Oohashi's localization of brain responses to regions which are, to a great degree, not generally associated with audition.
Instead of ripping apart a series of unduplicated reports, I'd rather regard them as intriguing and await independent confirmation.
Sure, except in your point that these authors are "merely using the results/conclusions of the study to support or interpret their own interests and phenomena." I think that would be hard to prove, and it's not exactly the kind of activity these people (Griesinger, Boyk & co.) are known for in the audio engineering circles (unless you are referring to those folks at Stereophile). We can safely say that at least those named are more scientifically oriented in their methods and approach than the great majority of those earning a living from audio industry out there. Moreover none of those I mentioned, as I think I stated, framed the findings of Oohashi et al. in any way; they merely observed the existence of this research and its results, calling attention to the broader issues it too addresses. Sort of tossing it in the air and asking: What do we make of this?So I'd say that's a bit biased as a statement from you.
Nope. None of these people, although respected and respectable in their own fields they may be, are neurophysiologists. Since they cannot replicate these or similar experiments, their use of the results does not constitute confirmation of the findings. When one looks at citations, those of reputable scientists in the same field are significantly different from those from outside the field. So, no disrespect for these people was implied.OTOH, I have yet to stumble on any references to Oohashi's work in the neurophysiological literature. The latter would be of interest to me.
Not to be splitting hairs, but your initial claim was that they are "merely using the results/conclusions of the study to support or interpret their own interests or phenomena." That's a positive statement: it's basically claiming that they *are exploiting* the study for their own purposes. That's a very different claim than your current negative statement that "their use of the results does not constitute confirmation of the findings," which proposes that they *are not validating* the study.The thrust of these two statements is very different in each case. I wouldn't disagree with the latter but I'm frankly puzzled by the former.
Without taking a stance on the merits of the paper (apart from my fascination with its research problematic), I haven't found anyone either criticizing its procedure or repudiating its results (apart from these very pages, that is). Since in accordance with all basic principles of scientific method the paper is very open in recording the details of its test setup and procedure, in principle anyone can also verify its basic correctness and assess its fundamental flaws. Instead of vague hints about lack of response in one academic corner (but not in some others) constituting a de facto refutation, why not break the silence and tell what's wrong with it, anyone? The floor is open and the audience is waiting and I am already busy making notes.
You're interested in seeing a credible confirmation, I'm interested in seeing a credible refutation; at some point we must compare notes.
I think you are splitting hairs. The reference and use of the conclusions of a scientific publication is fair game for anyone. For these audio technologists to do so is perfectly reasonable and I did not imply any misuse on their part.As for the second issue, the lack of any scientific interest in this subject is, especially in the face of Oohashi's publications, to me, telling. It is suprising that it did not stimulate any interest in the field of auditory or sensory neurophysiology.
I have not read the paper carefully in quite a while but I recall that my procedural objections (and surprise at some of the results) do not invalidate the paper. They only prevented me from accepting it fully until there is some independent confirmation.
"You're interested in seeing a credible confirmation, I'm interested in seeing a credible refutation;" Frankly, I'd welcome either.
Would you have the bibliographic references of the papers you've found?My take on this is that it is of academic interest for those who listen to low-rez formats only. For those who fancy hi-rez these findings may have some value but then, without electronic x-overs and having the supersonic stuff in a separate channel you probably are listening to IM distortion. So are audio press and manufacturers selling misinformation, once again ? What about tests with western music and western listeners?
Klaus
I would think the same (your point 1). Except that vinyl is not really (as) low-rez (as PCM). Doesn't it rather depend on contingent capabilities and properties of the vinyl rig what it can reproduce out of the analog source?TIA for the Kaoru & Shogu paper. It could offer more fodder for thought on the significance of IM distortion in this respect (your point 2).
These won't qualify as adequate referencing but here we go:
- I stumbled upon a German tonmeister thesis work that I didn't read yet (bet your German is faster - ) but which seems relevant at least in parts. I got interested b/c of the two supervisors (Maillard and Meyer) who are pretty much the creme de la creme of the current-generation tonmeisters around.
http://www.sdg-master.com/lesestoff/gesamtarbeitneu.pdf- Griesinger's "Perception of mid frequency and high frequency intermodulation distortion in loudspeakers, and its relationship to high-definition audio" is a PPt presentation (at AES 2003 meeting) and I'll email it to you. Found ref to it in a NHK Labs paper by Nishiguchi at
http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/labnote/lab486.html.
Similarly only skimmed through a few pages so far. He is high credibility in the audio world as I understand it.- The Boyk piece (mosty spectral analyses) I mentioned, "There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz! A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz," is at http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm.
Oohashi et al. are mentioned rather in passing in the (too) short discussion on significance. I couldn't find anything else by him, so I just wonder.- And an item from HiFi News with some more references at the end (though none of these are very recent
http://www.townshendaudio.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44&Itemid=103
No idea who this author is.- Stereophile had a big editorial and discussion on this stuff at the early days of SACD & DVD-A, in 2000 or 2001 I recall (try searching "Atkinson Boyk").
- Best of all, I just realized that we may be rehashing a old debate from these very pages: see http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/129397.html...
So it seems it's by no means a new discussion, even if nothing has really been established in the meantime. Indeed, why hasn't anyone done further studies on this?
Timo
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