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In Reply to: Tonian Acoustics TL-D1 Speakers posted by greg on April 15, 2007 at 19:22:22:
The review specifically says :"Fountek in China makes the original TL-R2 tweeter units. Tonian modifies the stock Fountek units including replacing the magnet and ribbons."
Replace the magnets and ribbons??? What's left of the original part? Someone has to take the time to do all of that deconstuction and reconstruction of the original part. That of course is time and labor, not to mention new parts cost. The work needs to be done somewhere under a roof and the parts need to be ordered. Some inventory needs to be on hand to do the work. That would be overhead and risk. And more time coordinating all of that.
And last but not least, someone had to spend the time to figure it all out in the first place, and then make it worth their while to manufacture it. The cost of the original Fountek part is hardly the total value of the finished product.
Maybe the info in the review was wrong?
Follow Ups:
> Maybe the info in the review was wrong? <Just an fyi - I got that information directly from Tony Minasian of Tonian Acoustics (the manufacturer) in an email.
Cheers,
Michael
> Just an fyi - I got that information directly from Tony Minasian of Tonian Acoustics (the manufacturer) in an email. <As a reviewer, weren't you curious what the motivation was for "modifying" the tweeters? I would think that your readers would be. The stock Fountek tweeter is fairly capable, especially when crossed so high.
Btw, Madisound (the USA Fountek distributor) charges $20 to repair damaged units. That includes the cost of a new ribbon.
A manufacturer is intitled to a fair markup. However, when items are sold factory-direct one would expect the margins to be a little more "customer friendly". I'd like to hear more about the modifications (which presumably justify the markup)...
I'm a curious person, even when I'm not reviewing. If you have some questions that aren't covered in the review, contact Tony at Tonian Acoustics. I found him very willing to discuss his products.So you're the guy who determines fair markup? Damn! I always thought it had something to do with a free market. Say - can you do something about the price of wine in restaurants? Thanks!
Michael
I've chosen to post this reply under Mr. Lavorgna's post for his benefit as a reviewer and for the benefit of Tonian Labs' current and prospective customers.First off, anyone is free to question the value of a product and decide for oneself whether to buy or not. So I cannot fault Greg for expressing his personal opinion on value. He is free to do so.
I have heard positive feedback on Fountek ribbon tweeters, particularly at their pricepoint. Dick Olsher has used them for some time, and now recommends that users send their Fountek's to Tonian Labs for rudimentary upgrades at very little cost. Dick Olsher: “I have auditioned both mods relative to the stock tweeter, and have found the Tonian Labs version to offer a much sweeter and more nuanced treble range.”
However, Greg made some cavalier statements that are flat out false and misleading, and certainly harmful to the manufacturer. Greg's math is also wrong. The Fountek tweeters are $119/ea and the TL-R2 is $625/ea, or $1,250/pair.
Here are the actual modifications:
- 8 pieces of modified magnets
- Replacement ribbons made in Switzerland (much lighter than orig)
- Enclosure modifications
- Crossover parts
- Enclosure with high quality matte-black finish
- Supra binding posts from SwedenThese are the hard costs. The cost of the binding posts nearly add up to one Fountek tweeter alone. Of course, there is R&D, outsourced machine work, shipping to and from, labor and advertising to name some other cost involved in manufacturing and sales.
Of course, all of this is freely available to anyone who takes the time to call Tony Minasian, proprietor and designer of Tonian Acoustics. That's actually the great thing about boutique manufacturers, you can actually speak to the person who designs the products. This option was and is of course available to Greg and others.
The Tonian TL-R2 provides variable sensitivity from 85-98db and includes a crossover (which Fountek does not).
Anyone who is in the market for Fountek, is not in the market for Tonian Acoustics TL-R2. There will be a difference in sound, and a difference in price, and each prospective customer will judge for himself whether it is worth it.
In addition to Michael Lavorgna's favorable review, a 6Moons review of the MuRata ES103A was written by John Potis in which he compares it to the Tonian Acoustics TL-R1 (Retail $950) under a few different applications. The MuRata retails for $2,495. The Tonian TL-R1 received a very positive review, and John actually preferred it to the MuRata in certain applications; for example, when matched with a single-driver speaker. In this case, the TL-R1 is 38% of the price of the MuRata. I'm not sure if we will see a review anytime soon that compares the MuRata against the Fountek.
On one level, I am sympathetic to a point Greg was trying to make: that there are outstanding values in audio. I am a value oriented audio customer. Brand means very little to me. I seek performance and value. I suspect I share this in common with Greg. This is why I wrote the review about the Tonian Acoustics TL-D1. To my ears, this speaker does a lot of things better than speakers that cost 5-10X. Furthermore, I seriously considered several proven DIY designs that would cost me less than the $1,750 I paid. But after hearing the TL-D1s on several occasions, and having DIY'd audio products of my own, I appreciate how much time and effort goes into R&D, and I was far from confident that I could produce a better speaker. What made the decision easy for me is that the TL-D1 is much better (to my ears) than speakers costing several times its price. I gladly paid the asking price for the TL-D1s, and I am a very happy customer!
I have no doubt that the info was correct, I was just trying to cover all of the bases. I also have no agenda to defend Tonian Acoustics specifically, other than speaking up in the interest of "fair play". Comments like that can really hurt small business.
I worked in manufacturing for 14 years and it really bugs me when people expect everything to cost no more than the total of the parts in the final product. I suppose that is the disposable world that we live in. Cheap parts and free labor.I guess I should have just kept out of it. Thanks for your input Michael.
Best,
QE
Thx Quiet Earth
I can't comment on any of this
What I can comment on is the way these speakers soundTo my ears there is huge value in these and the price point they are offered at
Hi QE,No problem at all - I can relate to (and share in) your frustration ;-)
Michael
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