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In Reply to: Harbeth Monitor 30 vs Spendor SP2/3E vs Spendor S8E vs Spendor SP1/2E posted by Mr Blue Sky on April 7, 2007 at 15:27:01:
And I would split them in three categories.- Harbeths. Though they're quite relaxed, they need more power than it seems and to sound really balanced, you must place them quite far from their back and lateral walls. Depending on your room's size it could be a problem. I've never dug them because they have a slight nasal quality on their human voice and string instruments rendition that I dislike.
- Spendor S8. This speaker was an effort from Spendor to get a kind of more "trendy" sound. Its midrange doesn't match the Classic series body and nice texture. Its bass is a bit flabby because IMHO they sacrifice a right midbass for more lower extension. The highs are more into the "detailed" side of things than into the natural and coherent side. If your room is not quite big and depending on the amps you're planning to use, you might have some problems with bass integration and room modes.
- Classic Spendors: The 2/3 and 1/2 are to my taste great speakers. They don't pretend to do what they can't and IMHO are a paradigm of honesty, though their price is getting a bit crazy lately. They're midrange champions, but some people may dislike their tendency to create center images (specially human voices) kind of bigger than reality. They have the advantage that can be driven with quite low powered tube amps (20 to 40 wpc is more than enough even in biggish rooms). Their bass response is fine, not deep but with good midbass, which is where most ported speakers spoil things. The highs are relaxed and quite open, but not as much as some "fashionable" modern speakers I'd take any of these two better than the Harbeths or the S8s.
These observations are just regarding "sonics". FWIW I find the SP1/2 enjoyable speakers, of the kind to relax in front of and just to listen to music, specially if you like jazz, classical and singers. If you like R&R and electronica things might be different.
Don't expect lifelike SPLs nor a big soundstage of the kind electrostatics and big boxes do.
I think that the best you could do is trying to listen to them before spending blindly your money.
Follow Ups:
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AJ - I guess we all hear things differently. Plus, you own SET whereas I own solid state (and Spendor and Harbeth are typically driven by solid state). I think the Spendor classic series, described in broad strokes, sounds colored, i.e., overly romantic in the mids and recessed above and below. They also sound boxy in the midbass / lower mids due to the traditional BBC thin-wall cabinet design (which is designed to shift the box resonance below the critical midrange). All Harbeths I suspect may sound boxy in this manner as well since its the same BBC cabinet design. I think the S8e is honest and involving. It's certainly not flabby whatsoever in the bass (driven by solid state). I suspect Spendor is voiced with SS amplification (and I know Harbeth is).
You're right, I never tried to mean that the Spendors in the Classic series were uncolored, but the things they do, they do in a "musically involving" way. I listened to the S8s at a friend's place driven by a MF integrated amp and also with a tube integrated. I liked them better with the 30wpc integrated, and with both I found the ported low bass too annoying to enjoy the speakers. Midrange for my taste is fine, but not as human and involving as the Classics can do. The highs IMHO are more "fashionable". Not bright, but kind of detached of the whole and artificially detailed. Of course YMMV in fact the S8s may be more neutral and show more things into the recording.
Well, I personally think that may not enough of a demo to draw conclusions. For one thing, did he have the speakers positioned correctly and was his room large enough to do them justice? They won't work in a 10' x 10' room, for example, and they need space from the front and side walls like any ported speaker. If I get mine closer than 3' from the front wall they boom. I've spent many droll hours in my room (which is dedicated with a separate AC line and acoustic treatments) getting speakers positioned and toed-in properly. This alone makes or breaks a system. Also, Musical Fidelity may not be the best choice for them. They seem to synergize with Naim in particular (ever notice that the Naim and Spendor logos are nearly identical?) Once positioned properly, they disappear and have a very unboxy, fast, linear bass response and the highs are smooth, even a touch polite or "recessed" and well integrated to my ears (certainly more so than the S3/5, Dynaudio and Elac speakers I also recently tried).
:-)Please don't take my comments as some personal attack to you, your speakers or your taste for sound. Mine are just opinions, personal, biased for my own taste and goals which aren't necessarily more correct or better in any way than yours.I went to my friend's several times. I think his room is big enough for the S8s, it's about 13x17, maybe larger, and he just uses that room for the stereo system. He has a big rug, lots of bookshelves on the walls... the room is quite correct sound-wise. Speakers were well away from the side and back walls and I helped him to find the better positioning. In fact we managed to get some decently sounding bass. They disappear and they have many of the virtues you mention, but bass correctness wasn't one of them. At least to my taste, and my friend's too, he finally traded the S8s for a pair of SP1/2. Maybe the problem was he mainly listens to classical music. Things that listening to pop, rock or jazz aren't an issue, with classical and opera, for someone who frequently attends live concerts, can be. In any case I also like better the S8s than Dynaudio, B&W and many other "modern sounding" brands.
I agree that MF isn't very good to get decent bass from underdamped speakers, but the tube integrated we tried, which is mine, is VERY good in that regard. My friend also had an Avi Labs integrated with them, but couldn't have the kind of sound he was looking for. I didn't listen the speakers with the AVI, so I don't know for sure, but I think this amp has some similarities to other PRAT-capable brands like Naim, Densen, Sugden, etc. Funnily when he got the SP1/2 he went back to use the MF and sold the AVI. I've recently visited him and we were listening to some opera and his sound now is way more natural and enjoyable. That's my impression and his too, but of course this is not a universally valid law.
It is more to the point to say that the speakers are voiced with accurate amplifiers, rather than an amp whose frequency response are a story unto itself.
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"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
The Spendor 2/3 or the Harbeth Monitor 30? I find the Monitor 30 to be extremely smooth, without a trace of harshness. It has a fleshy and velvety quality yet is also extremely neutral and it sound punchy and full. My fear is that the Spendor 2/3 tweeter won't be as refined or liquid and will have out of control peaks. But some say the Spendor is actually darker/warmer and less detailed than the Harbeth. So which would you say is more "relaxed" or silky of the two? I'd be interested in vivid comparisons between these two models. Thank you for your reply, BTW...
IMHO the Spendors are smoother and warmer. The Harbeths (read the designer's goals at their website into the FAQs, link at the bottom) are conceived more as studio monitors than music lover's speakers. Of course they're way more listenable than other brand's studio monitors, and into the Harbeth's range, the "monitor domestic" series are warmer.It's not that the 2/3 or 1/2 lack detail, but they offer it very well integrated into the mix in the way it doesn't grab your attention unless you look for it.
I think that the best for you would be trying to listen to the Spendors yourself. It's not that we listen differently, but we pay attention to different things and we "need" different sound attributes done right to enjoy the music and forget about sounds.
"It's not that we listen differently, but we pay attention to different things and we "need" different sound attributes done right to enjoy the music and forget about sounds."Very well stated.
This is interesting debate. Maybe I am writing from a perspective of the ATC owner, but I would always take a neutral, monitor-like speaker (Harbeth) and do a fine tuning with a component choice. If you purchase a coloured speaker, your further options are limited.
:-) It depends on the coloration. I don't think you can tame the nasality I found on the Harbeths with any amp. To me that's more annoying than the boxiness in the midbass the Spendors have, which by the way, the Harbeths also have for their thin cabinet walls.
You may prefer more extension and accuracy in the spectrum extremes. I prefer a naturally balanced midrange and give up some top octave "airyness" and bottom octave response. Some may prefer more "detail" and midtreble "punch" and others liking better some relaxation there.That's why I think it's important he listens to the speakers himself.
You don't think you can tame the nasality you hear, but I've never heard it on 4 different Harbeth models, and I've never heard anyone else say that about them. I'm particularly sensitive to a nasal quality in speakers. I think it's pointless to discuss the Harbeths since he seems to be looking for something much cheaper.
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"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
I owned the Compact 7ES-2 in the past. The one thing that I experienced with the Harbeths in terms of midrange was a "hollow" quality to the sound. That is the best way I can describe it. Not as distinctive as talking in a cave (as an extreme example) or someone talking to you with their hands cupped around their mouth, but something similar where something was simply missing. This might be the same thing that A.J. is describing as a "nasal" quality.That said, I lived with the Harbeths for about a year before getting rid of them. I would not have purchased them if I did not like them - they have many good qualities and are certainly worthy of an audition.
Live and learn, or listen and learn in my case.
For my profession, I'm very sensitive to voice alterations and the Harbeth's didn't sound natural to me. I wouldn't say they're hollow in the midrange, maybe not as rich as the Spendors, but not exactly hollow or sterile as many other brands are. I found that coloration more in the lower treble and it was similar to the kind of timbre you get from your voice when you speak trying to blow air through your nose at the same time by keeping your soft palate open, but way slighter. Once I detect those kind of colorations I can't stand them, but I can perfectly live without any bass below 60Hz or any treble above 12KHz. It's nice having it, but not necessary to enjoy music. OTOH having a clear and natural midrange is mandatory for me.
The Harbeths are not perfect by any means, but the midrange and vocal rendition are not where their weaknesses lie.
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"Occasionally we list eccentrically, all sense of balance gone."
You wouldn't move the Harbeths with a SET :-D They were mated with a Classé integrated which I don't think has that kind of coloration for other Classé gear I've listened to with other speakers.
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Nait 5i is anything but a neutral performer. I agree it sounds interesting in terms that it can boogie quite well but if you want to hear what Harbeths can, you need to find a better amp.Harbeths are definitely more - way more - neutral than the Spendors you are writing about. This doesn't mean they are more fun to listen to - that's a completely different matter. Many speakers that flirts with a linear response and a studio neutrality can be a pain in the ass to match and can sound more boring in studio conditions. They are definitely not for everyone.
My thoughts on the topic are: classic Spendors will bring you more of a pipe&sleepers atmosphere. They are ultimately more pleasent experience if you are tolerant towards their lack of dynamics, upper bass boxiness and a touch of artificial mid sweetness that many Spendor fans like. This character is very dominant and stay almost regardless of what amps you pair them with.
Harbets are far more reflective towards what you feed them with, but they are not so cruel and brutal in revealing all the mistakes you made upstream your system as some other, even more respected studio monitors such as ATC. Nasal quality described above comes from an amp (or even more likely - a preamp) it was paired with - that's not Harbeths for sure. They can boom only as a consequence of a wrong room conditions or amplification.
My objection with Harbeths is that ultimately they lack ATC's absolute chameleon character in a sense that I have never heard them neither in outstanding nor underwhelming performance. They are very decent, they have their own level of performance they rather retain, but they have their own limits. If you are seeking for a truly exceptional studio monitor type of speaker, UK style, try your lack with ATCs. Be exceptionally careful with what you are matching them with and you will go where hardly any dynamic speaker can take you today. With my ATC 20s I made a progress from an almost unlistenable performance to my current sound where a friend of mine, owner of the new Quad 2805, thinks I'm trying to fool him with hiding a pair of electrostatics with a woofer, instead of ATCs.
I've auditioned more than a dozen different speakers with the Naim gear (including a number of diffent Spendors) so I can say that my experience with the Harbeths is not a characteristic of the amp.I've heard that ATCs in the past and thought that they sounded wonderful, provided that they are fed ample amounts of power.
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