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I'm in speaker hell again. I'm using a pair of KEF 105.2 speakers which I originally purchased because I thought they sounded smooth and neutral. Lately I've been going back and forth between thinking they are bright or harsh. Today I was talking to this guy on the phone and he stated that he was a KEF dealer in the late '70s and he remembers people always complaining that the 105.2s were bright. So if the 105.2 are bright, which speakers aren't? The Calinda? The 104AB? Isn't the T27 tweeter reputed to be a bit spitty and harsh?? I thought vintage KEFs were supposed to be smooth and Quad 57-like. Is this not true? So if I want something that is laid back....even perhaps rolled off....but still somewhat refined and transparent and SILKY SMOOTH what would it be? I know that perhaps it doesn't exist, but I'm still hoping to find a dynamic speaker that comes close to being as easy to listen to as my old Quad 57 ESLs. One speaker I'm curious about are the Rogers LS5/9. Has anyone ever heard these? If so, how do they sound? Can anyone give me any speaker recommendations based on my criteria?
Follow Ups:
I moved from ESL 57 to Rogers LS5/9 a few years back and am very happy- I've listened to 100's of speakers and these are still the best standmounters I've heard regardless of price. I use either Quad II's or Prima Luna Prologue 2.
I thought I would post a duplicate of what I just put up at the vintage KEF forum just as an update to my situation with the 105.2s:"What attracts me to the KEF loudspeakers is the fact that I realize the T52 is probably the most well behaved and marvelous tweeter I've ever heard. It's also impossible to argue with the musicality of the B110. After last night's listening session, I've come to the conclusion....as I have in the past....that the 105.2 will give you exactly what you put into them. They are quite smooth, transparent, and Quad 57-like. However, stick a cold tube amp on them with a screechy cd....and yes, they will sound harsh. I saw god last night after my amp had been on for about 3 hours and I spun some vinyl. My problem is sources, not speakers.....however, I'm still interested in trying other units and yes...occasionally I panic and get brightitis, wherein I start to think my speakers are nasty sounding. Then I calm down and come back down to earth."
sometimes, music is not smooth and sexy. cymbals and brass should sound impactful and uneasy at times. that's how trumpets and cymbals sound!that's one of the things i really like about the T27. super realistic in this regard.
the Vifa MG27 I'm running in my 104/2 (T33's died a long time ago). sounds very smooth and relaxing, but they are sorta wussy when it comes to the aforementioned criteria. as are many modern hi-fi speakers.
sometimes spitty and ragged is how certain instruments sound.
see ya,
Robby
Why would a couple of Audax units 18db/octave slopes be any better than three KEF with 24dB/octave slopes?
The problem was probably caused by your amplification.T52’s in both Meridian and KEF loudspeakers have an age related problem where the voice coil splits into two or more sections giving a tizzy bright presentation, then it blows.
If you use under-powered amplification the Joule heating caused by the square waves induced in either soft (valve) or hard (ss) clipping will exacerbate the problem.350w is better than 25w in this case (and the Cantata and Ref 103).
The impedance curve is a bit of a witch in several places btw.
Now you could either rebuilt the T52’s or replace them with something like a Raven ribbon.If you want additional speakers to play with consider Mordaunt Short MS727 or MS737 – mine are pictured here
http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ribbon.html
half-way down the page.
If you still don’t like them and as you already have Volt bass units, build a design often compared to Quad ELS 57s the Decca-Volt!
The MS727 and MS737 do come with a health wealth warning.
Health they like being driven by big amplifiers so, although my Quad 520’s, 606’s and Crowns will shake the house.
The very big (four-man lift) > 500W Krell is quite a useable option.
Wealth warning like many KEF based designs, the MS’s are liked by ePrey pimps for speaker stripping.
The T27 is spitty and harsh without an aB crossover section, as is the T33mk1 (a KEF knock-off of a Peerless design.
The Ferrofluidised T33mkII and Aluminium varient in the 107 are just plain horrible like most Uni-skew, but they're playing to a modern mass market.
Thanks for the link too.
Colin, thank you for the wonderful post. Are you saying that the Cantata and the Ref 103 would do better with lower power in your opinion or that the issue is the same with those speakers? I'm not sure I understand...could you clarify? Thanks
I'd stay away from the Cantata with it's impedance plot if your using a low powered amplifier as it "goes negative" in most surviving examples.I think you ought to seek out a pair of original Ref 103's, which despite their age will see off a fair few megabuck designs.
I suspect, having had some Chorale homebrews with steel front baffles in the past; this design feature of the 103 allowing the baffle's rotatation, increasing driver Q's and rigidity does add more to a basic B200 SP1039 / T52 SP1049 combination.
Harbeth, Spendor, Quad dynamic and ESL, Stirling broadcast (LS3/5A v2 only), Audio Note, Vandersteen are the ones i know. There must be many more. The original Quad '57, refurbished, still sounds good; the refurbished '67s even better. They are effortlessly transparent. But it looks like the used market is mainly in the UK. The '57 requires a very stable amp and not a lot of power. It is well known as an amp frier because it is so reactive! (Not the other way around). The '67 is also reactive, but a bit more forgiving.I don't know when Quad installed the cut off circuit that would protect the current-based amp from its own current surges into a reactive load. You need to talk with a Quad ESL expert before you go down this road, but I think many small tube amps (15-30 Wpc)with output transformers would work.
I believe that this Music Reference power amp was designed with the Quads in mind.
driven by an Audio Research D-90 tube power amp and the Audio Research SP-9 hybrid pre amp. IMHO, in my listening room they sounded visceral, smooth, and very organic in the midrange, although a little wooly in the bottom end however the top end was a bit roll off as well. BTW, if you feed them with the right recording it can do a disappearing act just as good as some twice their price point.The only thing that I could think of that could make these speakers to sound harsh is if you underpowered them. These speakers required a lot of current not just wattage to make them sing properly due to their swingy impedances that sometimes dips to around 2 ohms.
Perhaps you should try driving them with better quality electronics.
his fisher and eico stuff is good. but probably overmatched for the 105/2.i know your hatred for solid state, but Quad SS amps sound very tubey. try a 405-2 or a 303. you have to monoblock them (need two) though for enough current.
A friend of mine had these and I had some lesser ones and they were smooth and would disappear and, if anything, a little warm.May I suggest better electronics and/or some AC noise filtering? My system was getting real bright and annoying especially when a dimmer switch was being used and I added a Furman PST-8 digital and it really warmed things up. I still plug the amp in straight to the wall as it sounds better that way but all the source components go through the fancy Furman power strip.
I had a pair of Rogers LS5/8 speakers on loan for a month about 25 years ago and loved them then. The LS5/8 is a bigger speaker but the LS5/9 is supposed to be a smaller version of it with the same balance and colorations but less bass and lower maximum output so maybe my long ago recall may be relevant. The LS5/8 was like a cleaner, wider band, more dynamic LS3/5a. I would have bought them then if I could have afforded them. If you like classic BBC sound you will like the LS5/9.
Then again the design is old enough to vote and speaker design has improved over the years, at least in a few designs.
Have a listen to the Silverline Audio SR-15's. If you find the SR-15 harsh then it is something other than your speakers.
Probably your interconnects btwx source and amp, or your source.If you want something under $500 take a listen to the new Carnival 2 from Mordaunt-Short. For $200-300'ish they are unstopable. (I just bought a pair and love-em. For the price diff btwx the SR-15's one can get alot of software/cd's/LP's.)
hey adam,it seems pretty obvious from here and on the KEF forum that KEFs are not your answer. trust me, buy some Bozak 302A-Urbans or get frisky and buy some Symphonies. they are what you want.
tight bass, super sexy mids (better than KEF IMHO) and smooth highs. well, not much above 12khz in the HF department. but you like tweeking. put a Decca ribbon tweeter or a janszen I-130 on top. (build and x-over).
so cental california? anywhere near san luis obispo? my wife and i went to cal poly and will be there for a wedding in late april. i can try to listen to your 105/2 if the wifey doesn't have a cow ;-)
I can't imagine 105/2's being harsh, UNLESS . . .. . .Someone blew the original T33 tweeters and replaced them with something totally inappropriate. The 105/2 uses the T33, not the T27. If you think it's hard to find matched T27s, try finding matched T33s now. Do a search here in this asylum for tweeter replacements for the KEF 104/2, it also uses the T33, and a lot of T33s are dying of old age it seems. . . .
. . .OR, it may be crossover cap time, there are some electrolytics in the crossover . . .
. . . OR, check and make sure the screws are tight on the B110s (midrange) and the woofers, if the are leaking air and/or losing energy, of course that could shift the balance of the speaker towards the top end.
BT
n/t
Oops, you're right. Got confused, was thinking it was the same as the Reference 101 vs. the Reference 102.That'll teach me not to try to type so fast . . .
Try Green Mountain Audio. I have a friend here visiting from the mainland who owns Quad 988's and he really really enjoyed listening to my GMA Calypso's. He thought the two were very similar sounding speakers, giving the GMA the nod in the top end, the Quad the nod in the bass speed department and rating the midrange equal. His front end/ amplification is better than mine, so that could explain the bass speed somewhat. His listening room is also larger. GMA makes really incredible speakers.
I've heard the Rogers 5/9 and owned both the LS 3/5A and the LS 7. I don't remember being exactly knocked out by the 5/9 but it was over a decade ago and my memory of the speaker is dim. Similarly, while I didn't dislike them, I was never a huge fan of the KEFs. I'm inclined to suggest that you try Spendor SP 1/2s. They are far from harsh - slightly soft at both frequency extremes and a touch warm but very faithful to the spirit of the music especially with folk, chamber music and acoustic jazz. You might find them too polite for some of your music tastes but if the ESL-57s worked for you maybe not. They don't have the bass extension or impact to really do dub and reggae well.
Even dimmer memories that might fit the bill are the Spendor BC 3 or the Snell but I don't think either would work well with your current amp.
That should say "...the Spendor BC 3 or the Snell A/III..."
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