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(1) Lets say an amplifier with an output of 200 watts @ 8ohms would require a 8ohm loudspeaker of 89db sensitivity to achieve an 105db peak.(2) So if the amplifier can also put out 325 watts @ 4 ohms, what would the sensitivity of a 4ohm loudspeaker need to be to achieve the same 105db peak. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
In general theough two spkrs in a room give us at least another 3db even at 2-3 metres, so the theory below is a good RoThumbBut the output of an amplifier for this question is best understood in terms of dbw a 200 watt amp having about 22dbw you add that figure to the speakers sensitivity number and get the peak output 'before clipping'. With an 89 db/w spkr @ 1 metre you have 111 db before clipping.
But many spkrs compress dynamics under hard drive which your numbers would be indicating. 6db loss does seems like a lot to me and I'd doubt that a spkr already limiting as 200 watts is approached could go much louder anyway.
Into a 4 ohm spkr 325 watts is only about 24 dbw, and the spkr would only need to be about 81 db/w IF it doesn't itself peak-limit under heavy drive.
The RoT is to figure how much power p.c. you need to get the peaks you want and add 3dbw to that IE double it. OR if your amp has 3db or better peak headroom than you needn't double the power!
A recent article showed that the effects on driver TS par's and FR of entire encl's from heavy drive is not as big as supposed, but I don't think it covered dynamic compression, as the VC's heat up, or even when they are still running relatively cool.
The db/w plus amp's dbw as a calculation 'holds best' IME for spkrs with sensitivities above 90db which are also efficient. These generally don't need high power although many CAN use it, without compressing.
I would not consider a 4ohm spkr to be efficient AND sensitive unless it exceeded 94db/w sensitivity and was an EASY 4 ohm load never falling below 3.5 ohms even under heavy drive.
Note that MANY 8 ohm nominal spkrs are 'sensitive' - 90db/w or better - but have impedance minima below 3 ohms along with highly capacative phase angles and need far more power than the formula I've mentioned would indicate.
famously most of the Wilson Watts / Puppies, more counter intuitively most of the newer Tannoy multiways - with the tulip guide horn in the dual conc. driver - are amp punishers! Both are quite sensitive but they can sure sink power.
IME the only risk to spkr drivers from high power amps is when you are playing around with connections and forget to turn the pre-amp down or the power amp burps anyway!
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
The power output available for brief transients without clipping is called "Headroom" and typically varies from about +1dB to +6db (+3dB is double the rated per channel power output, and +3dB Headroom (or close to +3dB) is common among decent amplifiers).I think the tone burst timing for this measurement is 200 milliseconds and I don't recall how clipping is defined.
I'd use 10% harmonic distortion as the definition of clipping but there may be no standard, which would explain why Headroom is often not included in amplifier specs.
Most amps can provide up to double the rated power per channel (+3dB) with high levels of harmonic distortion (compared to the rated harmonic distortion) before clipping distortion becomes serious.
Fortunately no music has 105dB levels that last very long ...or we'd all be deaf.
Average power output with any amp is typically 1 watt or less.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Lets say a 200 watt 8ohm amplifier requires an 8ohm loudspeaker of 89db sensitivity 1W @ 1m to achieve an 105db peak. What would the db's sensitivity of a 4ohm loudspeaker need to be to achieve the same 105db peak if using a 325 watt 4ohm amplifier into a 4ohm loudspeaker. Thanks.
"I come up with 87 dB/1 watt efficiency, or 90 dB/2.83 volt sensitivity, for the 4 ohm speaker (they're the same thing - just depends on whether the manufacturer specifies the 1-watt efficiency or 2.83-volt sensitivity [2.83 volts into 4 ohms = 2 watts])."When you say, "What would the db's sensitivity of a 4 ohm loudspeaker need to be...", you haven't specified whether that "sensitivity" is relative to a 1 watt input, or a 2.83 volt input. That's why my answer looks like it's two answers - one for each case - but it's really just the same answer expressed two different ways.
Chances are the manufacturer of the 4-ohm speaker would claim 90 dB/2.83 volts, as that looks more impressive on paper. But it's the same as 87 dB/1 watt in this case.
Yes' thanks, you are correct. I wanted some opinions because I was intrigued by Musical Fidelity's claims. See link, then click on "Our Advert Response" on the left.
Regards,
Brad
Musical Fidelity left out something very critical in their calculations: The additive reverberant sound contribution.It's very easy to establish that this is real. Measure your speaker at one meter, then again back at 4 meters. Anechoic theory predicts a 12 dB falloff in SPL (assuming point source speakers). If you measure less than 12 dB falloff, the difference is reverberant field contribution. Typically you will get a 3-4 dB higher reading than anechoic theory would predict. Musical Fidelity's numbers would lead you to buy twice as much amplifier power as you need.
Musical Fidelity does mention the reverberant field but instead of telling the truth about its contribution they say that a small amplifier somehow generates a fuller-sounding reverberant field than a large amplifier. This is a pure BS. The reverberant field is an acoustic phenomenon, and has absoutely nothing to do with amplifier power or distortion characteristics. I can only conclude that they are trying to convince you that if you heard a small amplifier fill a large room, it was actually a distortion-induced trick.
Now note that the engineering department probably has zero influence on what the marketing department prints, so the fact that Musical Fidelity is making BS statements does not necessarily reflect the quality of their amplifiers - only the credibilty of their propaganda.
Well' that was my opinion until I saw the names mentioned. Is it still all BS !!!"They are scientific fact backed up and endorsed by the foremost technical journalists in the world. In alphabetical order; John Atkinson (Editor of Stereophile) Robert Harley (Group Editor for Absolute Sound, ex Technical Editor of Stereophile. He really knows his stuff and has written books about it), Keith Howard (deeply knowledgeable and experienced Technical Journalist in the field of, well, anything technical) and Paul Miller (perhaps the foremost technical reviewer in the world, current Editor of Hi-Fi News)."
Very cleverly done. Mention names and provide quotes for specific statements which are correct, then string those statements together in an argument which is not correct.The 6 dB dropoff per doubling of distance is correct, in a free field such as out in the open. In a bounded space like a room, you get that 6 dB dropoff in the near field but not in the far field. The transition between the 2 is sometimes defined as the point where the dropoff changes from 6 dB to 3 dB for each doubling of distance. Depending on speaker and room, that can even occur before you reach a 2 metre distance.
They don't really cover speakers of different impedances. They use a simple dBW table which is correct for a pure 8 ohm impedance which few speakers present. For an 8 ohm impedance, 1 watt does equal 2.83 volts but it does not for a 4 ohm speaker as Duke has pointed out.
Having said that, most ss amps give power ratings for 4 and 8 ohms speakers, with a higher rating being shown for 4 ohm speakers, often 3 dBw higher. Provided you use the 4 ohm amp rating, everything is taken into account. Tube amps usually have output transormers and different binding posts for use with 4 and 8 ohm speakers. Their power ratings tend to be the same regardless of speaker impedance, because of the differences in the way they couple to the speaker as a result of the use of output transformers.
They say to measure the SPL at the listening position and deduct 10 dB for the attenuation over distance. At another point they say that 10 dB relates to a listening distance of 10-11 ft, somewhat under 4 metres. The attenuation would be 12 dB at 4 metres in a free field, but nowhere near as much in a room where 10-11 ft is in the far field and sound is reducing at 3dB or less per doubling of distance. Making this deduction too large means the end result is going to be that you need a larger amp.
The 3 dB add back for 2 speakers is correct. In a HT system with more speakers, you need to add back more for the additional speakers.
The 105 to 110 dB target is excessive in a small room. You need a large space like a concert hall for sounds of that level to work well. You're going to overload a small room well before you reach that volume. Your peak level depends on 2 things, the dynamic range of the music and the noise floor of your room. Concert halls have much higher noise floors than the average home listening room at night. I don't have measurements but it could be as much as 10 or 15 dB depending on where you live and whether you have air conditioning or not. If I try to measure background noise in my home with a Radio Shack meter, it's less than 50 dB and if I add the 46 dB dynamic range they quote from one of JA's measurements (I have no doubt about the accuracy of that measurement) to that 50 dB figure, I end up with a target peak of 96 dB in my house. There's even a safety margin in that since my noise floor is less than 50 dB. If you get a reading for the noise floor, ie the noise floor is above 50 dB using a Rat Shack meter, you can add 2 or 3 dB to the noise floor in order to ensure that the softest passages are clear of it. Even doing that, I doubt you're going to come up with a target of around 105 to 110 dB as the goal, and increasing the level of the goal translates to needing a bigger amp.
I listen at around 2 metres in a near field setup. My speakers are nominally 6 ohms and 86 dB sensitive. I use an amp that delivers 90 w into 8 ohms and a bit more into lower impedances so let's call that 20 dbW. Adding 20 dB W to my 86 dB sensitivity gives me 106 dB from which I deduct 6 dB for the doubling of distance to 2 metres and then add back 3 dB for the second speaker. That gives me a peak SPL of 103 dB. It's probably a bit higher due to the impedance of the speakers coupled with the fact that the falloff at even 2 metres isn't going to be 6 dB. I play most music with peak levels at the listening position rarely exceeding 85 dB. In a room the size of mind, 90 dB sounds quite loud and you wouldn't want to go much louder, definitely not to the 100 dB mark. Such levels would be unlistenable in my room. The sound just hardens and you lose any sense of gradation at high levels when you push them too high.
See how easy it is to mislead. They use JA's measurement of dynamic range which is accurate, but play games with it. In a smaller room the softest passages in a live performance of the work being played when JA did his measurements would be played more softly than 63 dB, considerably more softly and especially when the background noise level is lower. The peaks would be a similar amount lower than 109 dB, perhaps a bit more than a similar amount lower. Peaks are scaled to the room's capacity to deliver them and musicians don't push the room too much. They're chasing a sense of scale and dynamic contrast, and you don't need to play as loud to produce that scale and contrast if the room is smaller and the softest passages are lower in level. There's probably a fair bit more absorption in a concert hall than in your room at home too, so there's a little bit more level you have at home that gets lost in the hall. That saves you a bit more amplifier power too.
Of course, their sums are TOTALLY ACCURATE provide you:
1- use 8 ohm speakers; and
2- listen in a room the size of a concert hall that's full of people.Do that on your own and you probably don't have to worry about the attenuation with listening distance because people absorb a fair bit and you've lost that and got a bit more room support as a result.
And all they have to say to justify what they are presenting is that they're presenting the info in its simplest form, and that any errors provide you with a little bit of safety margin so that you don't have to worry about your amp ever being too small to do what you want. It doesn't take much to end up with a realistic peak level goal that's 3 dB less than what they suggest, and I'd say the average person would be more than happy with a peak level goal around 6-9 dB less than they suggest. For every 3 dB you lower that peak level goal, you halve the amplifier power required. 3 dB doesn't sound like much but when that's at the peak output level and we're talking amps of over 100 w power, it's very easy for that 3 dB to turn into 100 or 200 watts or more. That's a lot of money for peak SPLs you're never going to need to reach in a home listening room.
There are some advantages to having a bigger amp than required, but peak output level is rarely going to be the advantage you're chasing. A much more important difference is simply the fact that bigger amps have better power supplies and speakers respond to that in things like the speed of their attack and the crispness of it. Do you need as much extra power as their calculations recommend in order to gain that benefit. I don't think so.
Most of what Musical Fidelity says is true or at least arguable. But they slip in a couple of things that simply are not true and claim an umbrella big-name endorsement for the whole thing. That's not honest.If you have a Radio Shack SPL meter, or can borrow one, you can easily disprove their claim of 6 dB falloff for each doubling of distance in a semi-reverberant environment. I have made such measurements. In my room I measured at one meter and back at 8 meters - three doublings of distance, or 18 dB of falloff according to Musical Fidelity. I measured 11 dB of falloff. That's 7 dB less than Musical Fidelity claims, because they are claiming what anechoic theory predicts and ignoring the reverberant field's contribution. If you go back far enough in a large enough room (like an auditorium), the sound pressure level becomes constant because the reverberant sound totally dominates. This is basic acoustics, known I'm sure by the people whose endorsement Musical Fidelity claims.
On their claim that a lower powered amp makes the reverberant field "sound fuller" allegedly due to clipping, let's take a look. Clipping shows up as static-like bursts of high frequency energy, reproduced by the tweeter which would be beaming at those high frequencies so clipping would be relatively more audible in the first-arrival sound than in the reverberant sound. And an increase in high frequency energy would not normally be described as "sound[ing] fuller".
I think Musical Fidelity's marketing department is engaging in deliberate deception in order to promote interest in their big amplifiers.
Duke
If I were any of those guys, I'd want to sue for slander, or at least defamation of character. If I thought any of them really believed this crap, my respect for them and their publications would take a nosedive.
... but decided to rat 'em out by posting over on the Critic's Corner. So far John Atkinson has replied.
They have twisted facts to their end. Yes people that wish to use inefficient speakers could need a more powerful amp. But the real truth is they need more efficient speakers! Ones that don't turn amplifier power into wasted heat in the crossover and distort badly when fed serious wattage. Darn few speakers that are inefficient can actually play at 105dB at the listening spot. Not to mention 105dB is way too loud to be listening at.
Russ
200 watts @ 8ohms would require a 8ohm loudspeaker of 89db sensitivity to achieve an 105db89db sensitivity 1 watt 1 meter means it gets 89db with just 1 watt
92db = 2w
95db = 4w
98db = 8w
101db 16 watts
104db 32 watts
107db 64 wattsI don't see any need for more than 50 watts for your necessity. If the amplifier is rated 50 watts and has an equivelancy at 4 ohms (a 4 ohm tap for many tube amps) then this is all the speaker requires.
Most speakers on the market can't handle 325 watts - in fact most speakers can't handle 200 usable watts.
The best speakers that I have heard do not require more than about 30 watts and the best amplifiers I have heard are 50 watts or less (a lot less).
I presume the 105 dB peak SPL measurements you're referring to are taken at the listening position; at one meter the peaks should be much higher.To answer your question, I come up with 87 dB/1 watt efficiency, or 90 dB/2.83 volt sensitivity, for the 4 ohm speaker (they're the same thing - just depends on whether the manufacturer specifies the 1-watt efficiency or 2.83-volt sensitivity [2.83 volts into 4 ohms = 2 watts]).
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