|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
74.194.147.151
I'm debating whether to toe in my Spendor S6e speakers.What are the advantages and disadvantages with toe in? Note that I'm not super concerned with getting a lot of imaging depth. I like a mellower sound and a wider stage. Do certain speakers mandate a bit of toe in for proper driver integration, resolution, etc.? The speakers are 6.5' (198 cm) apart and I'm back 8' (244 cm) from them.
They're currently firing straight ahead (and all primary and even secondary reflection points are acoustically damped). Dealers and reviews suggest to toe in my Spendor S6e.
BUT, changing speaker position in my room is a major ordeal since I have heavy carpet and underpad and the concrete slab underneath is slightly uneven. Getting them re-leveled is extremely frustrating and I've spent enough time with previous speakers in this room to find the best location already. Thanks.
Follow Ups:
Greg,
If you bother frequenting these boards then you have an interest in getting the best sound you can and owe it to yourself to experiment. A little tedious perhaps, but you will never know how good YOUR speakers can sound in YOUR room until you make the effort.Depending on your speakers and room, toe-in changes can affect soundstage width, image focus, centre-fill and body, and tonal balance. It is one of those areas where you may be unaware of potential improvements until you hear them.
With several sets of speakers in my room I have started with no toe-in and quite liked it. However, over the longer term, I have ALWAYS ended up with some toe-in. My current speakers sounded great with no toe-in, but after full break-in, toeing them in added a little 'life' and 'sparkle' that was previously missing. I didn't realise this until I went to the effort of trying it.
Even if you ultimately decide that you prefer no toe-in, at least you will be comfortable in knowing that you have tried it for yourself and that you aren't missing out on any free improvement!
Do a search for Iron Chef Speaker Set Up Protocol
_______________________________________*Analog fans may be blind-but digital fans are deaf*
http://www.flickr.com/photos/82495693@N00/
.......They are not very heavy so how hard can it be? Don’t worry too much about levelling them till you experiment first or take the spikes off while you’re shifting them around.You have some good advice below BUT it is all lip-service until YOU actually try it in YOUR own room.
IMHO a little bit of effort and time is usually very rewarding.
Have a go mate!
Good luck.
Smile
Sox
No matter how much I experiment with different speakers and no matter what room I have them in, I almost always end up with the same scenario.___After I have determined the proper distance from the back and side walls :
1. I start with the speakers pointing directly at me. At this point I can only see the front faces of the speakers. I can not see any side of either cabinet from where I sit (except maybe the top).
2. Then I point each speaker slightly away from me so they are firing directly at my shoulders instead of my face. Now I can see a very small amount of the inner side panel of each speaker as well as the face. (By saying inner side panel, I mean the side of the speaker that is closest to the center of the room.)That's quite a bit of toe in. The speakers are basically crossing directly behind my head. This almost always gives me the best compromise between a solid mono image and fun stereo effects. I don't worry too much about stereo "imaging" because most of it is artificial anyway. Each recording will have a different artificial image anyway, so who is to say which way is correct?
Take the spikes off and have fun experimenting. Put the spikes back on when you're finished.
First I found an LP with a soundstage, without this yer beating a dead horse. Jazz or classical over R'n'R, IMO.
I did not use the spikes, such that I can move the speakers bit by bit with little effort.
In my experience and hence the appropriate position, I found the soundstage widened when they were pointed nearly straight ahead. This is improved upon when I had a blanket over my side walls (CD & LP cabinets).
Soundstage depth for me was dependant on distance from the rear wall. I'm at about 45 inches, yet with no need for WAF acceptance.
You gotta experiment with each speaker/room combination, it's worth it!
Most speakers have reduced high-frequency output as you move farther off-axis, so toe-in changes the relative strength of the on-axis sound and first reflections at those frequencies.With controlled directivity (dipoles, horns) you can do alot to avoid image shift towards a nearby wall and to greatly extend the imaging sweet spot (say to all three seats on a couch).
Don't forget controlled directivity speakers like Audio Kinesis too.
...take off the spikes while you're moving the speakers around.Once you get them optimally placed - correct toe-in and all - then put the spikes on and level them.
I sounds like mobility during the testing process is your big issue. How about placing the unspiked enclosures on a piece of plywood or MDF large enough to ameliorate the effects of the carpet and uneven floor. With some of those sticky felt like glides attatched to the bottomes of your speakers you should have teriffic mobility over the wood.Speaker placement is huge. Personally I used the Avalon Acoustics setup method as a starting point, I'm sure there are many others.
It is pretty easy to experiment and find out which works better in your set up.There are so many variables involved that only trial will determine the outcome. I would start with the speaker facing directly at the preferred listening position and then moving the speaker around to find the position with the best bass response (most even and articulate bass), while maintaining the same "aim" of the speaker. I would then work on the tilt of the speaker to get the right image height and balance of highs to lows. Then, I would experiment with toe-in. Less toe-in will tend to create a larger soundstage and more more relaxed sound, but center focus will be diminished.
Why wouldn't you toe in the speakers? If the sound is improved, keep it. If not, reverse it. I don't understand the angst over a simple and easily reversible process. Actually, because of my room config, I have one speaker slightly toed in more than the other.
are you still want to futz with the speaker positioning?What are you trying to change ( improve )?
If it's just a matter of curiosity, just do it and find out what it does.
it all day long and never hear what its going to do unless you do it.if the speakers are spiked then just pivot them equally on 1 of the spikes and hear for yourself.
if they have been there a while then getting them back into the same holes should be no problem.
Smart ass answer, I know, but that's been my experience. You are altering the angle of the tweeter to your ears, primarily, altering the amount of direct radiation. If they're aimed right at you, you are getting "all" of the tweeter. At any angle you are getting some of it direct, some indirect. There are some interesting exceptions - Audio Note speakers like to cross in front of you. Weird but it works. So I guess I'm speaking about other cases!
My primary and even secondary reflections are acoustically damped with acoustic fiberglass panels. So sidewall reflections are taken out of the equation (and is most of the front and rear wall bounce). I get a good central vocal image. So sidewall reflection "liveliness" is not a factor. I guess I feel good hearing your "tone control" response in light of this.
Thinking a little further on this, you may also be affecting how much bounce you're getting off the side walls. I'm used to having my speakers (again, other than Audio Notes which live in corners) well away from side walls, so they're not much of a factor. But if your side walls are close at hand, aiming your speakers toward you can cut down on that first reflection, which both screws up imaging (if you care about that) and boosts the upper mids, making your speakers seem more lively, for better or for worse.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: