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In Reply to: Some observations/comments posted by DevillEars on March 10, 2007 at 03:20:56:
......Over Xmas I was toying with my system as I wanted to integrate my 2 channel and main HT setup.The amps I was using to see how they would perform in two channel mode with my main speakers are.
• Musical Fidelity A300 integrated 150w x 2
• Musical Fidelity A308 integrated 150w x 2
• Pioneer VSX-AX10AiG receiver 200w X 7
• Denon AVR 3805 120w X 7
• Yamaha RX-V2400 Receiver 120w X 7
• Opera Audio Consonance Cyber-800 mono blocks 70w X 2I am pretty sure ( no I haven’t looked at the manuals) all the amps, except the Cybers, are rated 20Hz – 20KHz into 8 ohms. The Cybers are rated <10Hz – 100KHz into 8 ohms.
Now in order of performance (which coincidentally correlated to how loud they would play as well)
1 The Cyber mono blocks were far superior in every way.
2 The A308 (just over the A300)
3 The A300
4 The Pioneer AX 10
5 The Yamaha 2400
6 The Denon 3805Now the Cybers can play at concert levels continuously and sound way better than anything else I have. The MF gear can not quite reach the loudness of the Cybers and get VERY hot when pushed hard for 30 – 40 mins but I did live with them for a while before the Cybers.
All the receivers simply can’t play at concert levels and the auto overload/heat circuit trips when they are pushed (That is in two channel mode – load em up with 5 speakers and they run out of puff real quick)My speakers are full range and rated at 90db 1w @ 1 metre and between 5 to 6 ohms. ( I’m on a new PC and currently can’t access my old data to give the measured details I have on the exercise)
I also have auditioned a Audio Aero Capitol Power amp with the same speakers etc ( 12 months ago though) and it is rated at 50 w and it also could play at concert levels continually. ( I was a tight-wad and passed on the purchase even though I was very impressed)
So DE I reckon the rated wattage of a lot of gear is a load of bollocks. ( I know receivers are notoriously over rated )
PMPO ratings are meaningless for musical applications. My powered PC speakers are rated at 480w PMPO and I reckon they are about 8 to 10 w in realistic ratings.
IMHO most speakers will sound wayyyyyyyy louder in room than out in the paddock. ( I have tried that with Paradigm Studio 100’s - they can play very loud in room but are no good in the paddock)
Um, yes, I am having a frothy one & we are all very well here indeed thank you.
Cheers to you and your three lovely ladies.
Smile
Sox
Follow Ups:
After seeing your first post and before seeing this one, the first thing that came to mind was that the 70-watter was likely a tube amp and the 150-watter was solid state. I see that initial thought was right. From experience with both SS and Tube amps, I have come to this rule of thumb: a tubed amp sounds about equal in volume to a SS amp at about half the wattage of the SS amp. I have found this rule of thumb to be pretty true. The question becomes why is it so. My guess is that tubes can be pushed into higher power before sounding stressed (i.e. before the generated distortion becomes objectionable). It is the fundamental nature of the difference between tubes and SS. It also explains why I like the dynamics of tube amps much better than SS. Tubes respond dynamically more musically than SS. This explanation is independant of the pure electrical calculations found in this thread. If you follow those calculations, the 70-watt tube amp is less capable of generating SPL's than the 150 watt SS samp. But I'll bet the 70-watter sounds better and more dynamic.
Mark
... of those amps...I'd be prepared to put money on it that the "order of performance" shown would correlate very closely with the various amps' ability to come close to "doubling wattage into halving load" - with the Cyber monoblocks a definite winner (separate power supplies are "finestkind" in audio).
What would also make interesting reading would be a comparative set of frequency response curves (dB at frequency) to identify any potential culprits for the "psycho-acoustic loudness prize" (some amps have peaks in the midrange (usually upper mids) that tend to create a false impression of high playback levels because the human brain perceives this band more clearly than the balance.
Having compared integrated stereo amps with stereo power amps and with monoblocks - I'm convinced that the more "dynamic headroom" there is in the power supply coupled with less need for "power sharing", the better the end sound quality will be.
Interesting note: I've always found that a high quality and neutral sounding system will not sound as "loud" as one of lower sound quality and a lack of neutrality to the sound. By "loud" in this context, I mean that the sound results in me wanting to get up turn down the volume (or, in really extreme cases, leave the neighbourhood entirely...)
Oh well... it's approaching 16h00 here, so I suppose you're already in the arms of Morpheus and will only see this in the morning -
"What would also make interesting reading would be a comparative set of frequency response curves (dB at frequency) to identify any potential culprits for the "psycho-acoustic loudness prize" (some amps have peaks in the midrange (usually upper mids) that tend to create a false impression of high playback levels because the human brain perceives this band more clearly than the balance."
Well, you got that right, look at huge lift in the midrange (into a real speaker load as a result of ohms), there are many others where that came from.
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