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In Reply to: Wanting to trade the Stratus Gold already eh? NT posted by RGA on October 12, 2005 at 10:57:31:
The Gold's are nice but I like the more upfront in your face sound of the Klipsch's with the music I listen to (metal, hard rock, alternative..).
Follow Ups:
Wow I said it more as a joke.Honestly If I were you I'd be looking for quality horns -- I don't know enough about enough Klipsch models to make a suggestion other than the K-Horn but they need corners -- don;t waste your time with these slim line floorstanders that are populating the industry -- they have no real balls and the Stratus Gold is one of the better of this lot.
Many of the things self-appointed golden ears are after(Soundstage and Imaging) run almost at odds with what I think You're after - dynamics bass transients and BALLS.
My Wharfedale Vanguards and the older bigger E-90 would be more up your ally. They are good enough to be home speakers(they are home speakers) but have also been used by DJ's and bands who need something for a party. They will destroy the Gold or the Paradigm 100 or the NHT 3.3 and best of all they'd run you practically nothing on the used market $400.00US retailed for $2k back in 1990. Horns have an openness and clarity and what I call "treble slam" that is perfectly suited for cymbals and horns.
The trick is being able to take it at high levels for long and finding a non fatiguing horn. The metal tweets at higher levels break up and sound hard and spitty. The Snell B-Minor like the 3.3 doesn't integrate drivers at all sounds like a boom and sizzle product - the B-Minor had a hideous sick asking price - I could have bought it for $2kCad at that time $1300.00US only a few months old and after listening my dealer at the time and I just looked at eachother and basically laughed. This is what Stereophile recommends to people??? Yikes.
Horns. Maybe there are some new AZ - Twos and Threes still around where you live. I just couldn't get the sound i wanted out of them in my room with my equipment quick enough to warrant the purchase and they were too little reviewed to take the risk. At the Audionote shop they played everything very well with lots of dynamics from a low power AN tube amp, Sugden A32-SE (class A SS), and my BC CS, with an AN DAC of some kind. If only i lived in a demo room or had the money to upgrade the CDP! I have been told that AN speakers are "revealing" of non-friendly components, but I rarely know what to believe, except for what I hear.
I have not heard the AZ floorstanders -- from the review in positive feedback I get the impression they are not built for this kind of music anyway.The AN J or E will do it fine but they don't have enough of the midbass rise that is probably needed. The thing is I would not get caught up in looking to find accuracy as doled out on these forums -- live heavy rock at a concert is always played through amplifiers and rock concert speakers - so getting AN's from a designer who loves classical unamplified music who believes in microdynamics, delicacy and tonal aspects is not exactly "geared" to heavey metal. They just happen to do it well. But it's quite a premium if metal is the thing.
I hate to say it but many speakers that are not considered accurate may in fact be more "pleasing" to the ear for this kind of music.
Horns simply seem to hit harder - that is what is used at the live concerts and if you want something that will give you that visceral impact then those speakrs are the ones I would look to - or the more audiophile Home version like the K-horn.
Though I don't see why being too little reviewed would matter. After listening to a healthy dose of what gets raves from a big British SS maker in Stereophile and a Big British speaker maker known for bulletproof drivers it seems that's reviews can lead you to spending 4 times as much on totally inferior and downright unnacceptable sound. And that's for any music but heaven help rock music.
I agree. In my case, i know i have a lousy listening environment in my summer house that isn't fixable and i think break-in would have improved the sound a lot, but how much? However, i wasn't willing to take the risk of putting down $1,000 unless i saw more reviews that could point out the strengths and weaknesses of these speakers, among which i was also worried about having to get on the upgrade path. The Audionotes always play well in their dealers' show rooms, and I heard the AZ-2's play a wide range of music.Once a few things settle down with regard to my hearing problems (an operation) and my finances, I definitely plan to revisit them, if they are still available, but i think will end up with a UK mini or small monitor, proac, spendor, quad, etc. (I was actually intrigued by the US-made NSM speakers reviwed above and their tiny brothers).
I haven't given up on Audionote by any means, but i am not going to get on a substantial upgrade path for them. I love the sound of so many of the small monitors and the music comes first for me.
Have you tried JM Reynaud? I have never heard them but Bob Neil had a post on here and they have new model - This if for the monitor suggestion not the heavey metal suggestion obviosly. A fellow Audiophile sold off his AN K/Spe and bought the Auruum Cantus. He had the K in too big a room and with SS amps and not in a corner -- So I can understand your issue with the AN's.The Cantus or whatever is a ribbion tweeter - have not heard them but might be worth a shot as well.
I don't know that AN is going to make the floorstanders anymore? They were an interesting design part hor part transmission line but with close to 1/3 the back cabinet being exposed.
It's too bad most of the marklet is glutted with speakers that have the exact same design approach -- it limits one's ability to discern real qualitative differences anymore.
Listening to Kraftwerk right now -- Interesting band (synthesizer crazy). And they SE tubes can;t do treble or bass power.
I wish there were more pure kick-ass rockers I knew of to recommend you give a try to - but it seems the public is willing to accept panzy ass gutless speakers and pay big money for it (especially if it comes in a nice cherry wood).
I always say that sooner or later they'll figure it out. It's actually kind of good to own some of the stuff the rags endlessly tout because then wwhen you do finally hear something good you might turn into a fanatic like RGA :-)
And as I've been knocked for mentioning UHF - I also want to be clear that I have disagreed with them nbumerous times for judging speakers without hearing them, and for liking some of those same gutless wonders. If you ever heard the Castle Eden you know what I'm talking about. Talk about a dull sounding speaker and they raved and raved and raved?? Yeah Castle doesn't make it anymore.
Thanks for all the advice. We have a limited representation by UK mfrs in Denmark. I have auditioned many on a trip to the UK a few months, but my ears got saturated. I'm biding my time to take a short vacation to the UK with my amp and CDP. As i recall, the Quad 12Ls sounded best to me, but it was so close among many UK brands and their top minis. They all do the same things well and now it's just a matter of seeing on a final trip how they sound through my equipment. I have not tried the JMRs. I may try some Charios here at the AN dealer. A 2-way UK floorstander (a mini with a box) is still an outside possibility, as my wife likes rock, but the very ear-friendly and placement friendly 2.5-way SS speakers i have (Audiovector) definitely have problems with my small cavelike room.Our AN dealer has some AZ one look-alike floorstanding cabinets in exotic wood finishes without drivers, cross-overs or cones. I have never seen them in AN's literature. Interesting, but i am sure they would spell trouble for me and my little kolonihavehus (a small summer house in a colony) where i spend 6 months every year.
Well, I am off to buy a sæt of headphones. That may be the utlimate bad room solution!
That's funny because I was going to suggest headphones - the best solution -- well for a while.I liked what Quad had to say on their site about their tweeter philisophy -makes much sense.
Did you ever get to hear the NHT 2.9s or 3.3's. Very quick, clean, and articulate, plenty of slam when needed. They do rock very well.
The Gold is better than the 3.3 for any music. Though the 3.3 has the ear bleed inducing treble response which may sound better for the type of music needed.
Are the NHT's realy that bright and hard up top?? I mean people say the same about Klipsch speakers and i havent found them to be that overly bright sounding when driven with good quality electronics especially tubes.RGA I agree that horns are probably the way to go. But the Khorns are out of my price range. The have been my dream speaker since i was a little kid and heard a pair of Khorn's driven by Mac gear, never heard a system that could rock like that, so effortless, dynamic, so big sounding. These wussie slim tower "audiophile" speaker just dont give you that huge rocking sound like the Khorns. Unfortunetly I can;t afford them:( I have heard that Klipsch may be bringing back the Cornwall which would be very interesting. I have been considering some of the older 3-way Klipsch speakers like the Forte, Chorus, Cornwall, KLF30...etc Those speakers were designed more for music than the RF serie which is more of A HT speaker line. Not that the RF-7 is a bad speaker, it can really rock, but It seems to be missing something in the midrange that i can't really explain. Buit I think it has to do with being a 2-way design using 10in midbass drivers all the way up t0 2000hz. Im not really sure why Klipsch descided to go 2-way instead of three way like the KLF series of speakers that came before th RF line. They always used 3-way designes in thier top speakers, so I don't know what made them switch to a two-way?? I think if they would have stuck with the general 3-way design of the KLF line but used the RF series's technology I think they would have really had a great speaker.
Well Klipsch has decided to follow most of the rest of the speaker industry with slim towers so it's not surprising their speakers sound worse.Back when I bought my Wharfedale Vanguards (horns) Klipsch was everywhere and they had those speakers with two 10's and a big horn on top or ones that looked like 15s and a horn on top. Sure forget imaging and soundstage but they could really pound and they sounded more listenable than competing Cerwin Vega's (the D9 was $1k Cad and could absolutely pound 112db sensitive I believe and they were touted as the indistructable speaker in that you could put the speaker wire directly into the power socket and not blow them. They are fantastic party speakers -- but Cher's deepish voice can sound like she had a sex change so accuracy is not the D9's strength. Still for thunder factor it was untouched under 1k.
The Klipsch around the same price was less able to thunder but it sounded better and certainly rocks better than the panzy ass stuff being geared for home theater. Subs tend to sound like a big music slug slugging the music down. Or like most a boom and sizzle presentation. Good for a movie because who cares but we are highly adept at hearing the mismatch.
To illustrate
UHF magazine liked the Klipsch Kg4.2 (not the Kg4) in issue 39 so this is a while ago as a rocker. It was $1199.00Cad had two 25cm woofers one a passive radiator and a horn on top -- The panel liked it and noted that it could actually give the scale of a full orchestra. 95db sensitive.Over the years I have gravitated to sensitive speakers because they have a "life-like" presentation. The current crop of Slim Lines image better and may be better off axis, but it all sounds like constipated dreck -- as if it's trying to create a sound out of a funnel. Sure it sounds bad but sounding bad even when you sit 30 degrees off axis is not exactly a wonderous thing. Largely it's because it's CHEAPER to make and has high WAF factor.
The Klipsch kg4.2 has some frequency issues at 6khz and 2.5khz (spikes0 which will lean bright -- they noted that it was good at imaging.
Anyway it's a choose your poison and many speakers have traded micro and macro Dynamics, bass, volume capability, transients, decay, tonal and timbral accuracy in for imaging and soundstaging. The two things you now get instead of what you used to get are the two things that you have zero way of knowing is accurate or not and two things that in a live event you would never in a million years notice or care about. But they take up less space at the showroom so they can sell more.
It's not a surprise that older speakers are still selling or new manufacturers are re-making older designs. Even McIntosh has re-made one of their 20 year old amps -- and apparently it's their new (err old) flagship.
My Wharfedales are a decade newer use better drivers and is a 3-way (one midrange) in a slighly different alignment than the E70. The Vanguard was 40hz - 23khz (95db 8 ohm 175watts RMS)and use what looks like a Fostex Ring horn tweeter. Less bright than klispch tends to be which is one reason why I bought them. Front ports and work nice near wall. $2k in 1991 -- now you look at the feeble gutless wonders today for $2k-$2500.00 and I rll my eyes. Imaging and soundstaging -- trust a multi-billion dollar Company(Harman) to pull the wool over people's eyes -- very slick!
I don't get it. You have accused me and others of buying on the advice of magazines, often putting down magazines as biased. Yet you quote a magazine that has the biggest conflict of interest and flogs products shamelessly. Incidentally, I have never even bought a magazine and have never bought on the basis of any mag. As for the slimline designs and metal tweeters you often slag you don't know what you are talking about.
Was this post to you? This is a subjective opinion - you're welcome not to agree - as a fellow one here disagrees with me about the 3.3. No big deal -- you like what youlike just don;t expect the world to agree with you.Yes UHF has issues as well in that I don't agree with their opinions but generally speaking they're honest about their opinions and they're not funded by advertising. They sell stuff that is not available most places like hard to get Reference Recordings. They sell some cables and accessories and tough to get Vinyl. It's better than selling products and disguising them as reviews.
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No I have not been able to hear the NHT's. But I see the new Classic 4's on thier website and thy look very interesting, and Ive heard they will sell for under $2k. I think they may be worth a shot. I really have no way of hearing the 2.9 or 3.3's as I dont know anyone locally that ownes a pair. I did hear them at a dealer when they were still being made and the 3.3 was my dream speaker for a while, but I could never afford them and the big amplifier they required to sound best.
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