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In Reply to: help me sort out the sounds (45, 2A3, 300B) posted by jcb2005 on March 21, 2007 at 14:13:03:
Thanks everyone for your replies, suggestions, comments -- and for the ones to come (please don't stop!).Here are a few more details about my system, preferences, and situation:
I listen mostly to not-so-loud rock and jazz on vinyl. My room is quite big overall; it's about 35 x 14 x 12 high. This includes the kitchen, which is open to the living room via sliding pocket doors. My speakers are along the long wall, in the middle. The Zu Druids are sensitive (12 ohms nominal) and efficient (101 db).
I have not bought anything in a high-end store in a long time. (Maybe my Planar 3 in 1996 was the last store-bought item.) I don't know; maybe I'm shy, or maybe I'd rather not buy new (pay new, though that seems to be changing). I've done OK with my limited resources and hope to continue like that.
Perhaps I should visit In Living Stereo and listen to the Shindo amp. But I feel guilty knowing that I just cannot afford it. It's also expensive to try out at home all of the amps I am interested in. It's only through the wonderful generosity and try-out policy of George Wright that I am able to hear his two amps in my home. I just don't see anyway to get a 45 to listen to without too much trouble. Hence, my questions.
I've been listening to music and to equipment, buying and selling gear, and participating in AA forums (mostly the vinyl one) long enough to know that it's all about listening. Of course, I trust my ears more than anything I can read here or elsewhere (how it sounds to me is both beginning and end), but I also value what you folks have to say.
So, though in general we shouldn't generalize and apply what we hear to others, I'm asking for just that. (If we were all forever vigilant about keeping our own subjectivity from infecting others, we'd never say anything again!) You guys have a lot of experience (I can tell); please keep it coming.
A final note: I did not intend to disparage the Wright amps I have in my home right now. I actually love them both, and George has been downright friendly with me via email and over the phone. I'm leaning towards the 3.5s but have not had my serious sit-down with them yet. (That will be a comparison among the 3.5s, Mono 7s, and a BAT VK-55 [evil push pull--yet triode!] in which I will enlist my wife [if she's willing] and a friend [if he's willing]. I wish I had a 45 on hand, though.)
Wish me luck.
Follow Ups:
First off, a little tea and a lot more sympathy: this is truly *agonizing*, isn't it? I feel your pain, 'cause I went through it three to four years ago. 45s, 2A3s (speaking of which, what *are* "current" 2A3s anyway?), 300Bs? Some other exotic variant? Something different entirely? And what speakers? Oh, you've decided on those already. But, are you going to inhabit this listening room forever -- and, if not, what to do??? It's never ending, huh? But, enough unhelpful empathizing. I don't show up on this forum often, but when I do, it's to help in some practical manner -- hopefully....Second, if you're looking for "our man in Brooklyn," Don Farber is it. A real gentleman, who will run circles around your soon-to-be new "best friends" at In Living Stereo, and who will get you centered and on the right path, S.E.T.-wise. Please e-mail me privately, and I'll give you his contact information -- assuming you don't already have it. (A warning, though: I haven't seen or even spoken to him in a couple of years, so I may have outdated info.) Also, e-mail me privately if you'd like to know how the folks at In Living Stereo wouldn't know an S.E.T. amplifier if one fell through their roof at their Astor Place "audio salon."
Third, a 35' x 14' room with 12' ceilings? Why can't I convince my wife to move to Brooklyn??? (We live in a 600 sq. ft. apt. in Manhattan!) Even with the speaker efficiency and volume levels you're citing, though, I truly wonder if the 45 tube is going to come even *close* to doing enough for you in that space -- in all respects, not just in the basement frequencies. (Very frankly, many would argue that the 45 handles bass frequencies more accurately than any other audio amplification device ever devised -- vacuum tube or otherwise. In any event, I would be hard pressed to list "bass response" at the top of a list of 45 shortcomings.)
Fourth, no matter what, it's *really* hard to go wrong with one of George Wright's products. I own his (original?) phono stage, the WPP100C. Couldn't be happier with its value. And my assumption, without first-hand experience, is that his amplifiers -- indeed, everything he builds -- likely exhibits that same "low cost for high performance" quality. Basically, you're just not going to go wrong, here. Just like if you were to sit down in front of two bottles of wine -- say the '47 Cheval Blanc and the '61 Petrus -- you just aren't going to have any regrets. And no one's going to feel sorry for you, either :-) You're at or very close to the summit; so, take some comfort in that.
Finally, if you still really want to hear a 45-based power amplifier in your current system, I'd be happy to help you out. I have a 4-year-old Jeff Korneff 45SE that I'd be happy to bring by for a listening session in your system. It's in storage at the moment in my house in Greenwood Lake (in Orange County -- about halfway between the city and Woodstock). Easy enough to cart back to the city and to your place, if you'd like. We could spend a weekend afternoon seeing if the (wonderful, beautiful, gloriously psychedelic, how-could-you-possibly-consider-any-alternative? :-) 45 tube does anything for you in your system. One caveat, though: Jeff (Korneff) has warned me about coupling cap leakage in his older amps, and I haven't tested mine yet. (It's been a couple of years since I've used it -- although it's been well broken-in.) I'd have to run some quick tests with a multimeter before I'd feel comfortable putting it back into use. Another caveat: although it drives much less efficient speakers than yours (mine are Cain & Cain [R.I.P., Terry] Abbys at something like 95 dB), the system is in a *teeny* room -- you can check my system for room measurements by clicking "(A)" -- and, in fact, they're the nearfield version of those speakers, so I sit ***very*** close to them. So, my listening "position" is bound to be *much* different than yours.
Please -- anyone -- correct me if I'm wrong; but, the common wisdom sems to be: use the 45 if you can; if you can't, step up to the 300B. (Which implies that the 2A3 represents the worst of both worlds. Of course, 2A3 fanatics will likely jump all over this, saying that it represents the *best* of both worlds. Maybe both camps are "correct" in their own ways?)
In any case, jcb2005, if you'd like to get in touch, e-mail me privately if you would: jim.hodgson[at]yahoo.com (you know what to do with that: replace the "[at]" with "@"). And sorry that I can't do more along the lines of "the 45 does this well and that poorly; the 2A3 does this well and that poorly; and the 300B does this well and that poorly." From my experience, the situation just doesn't lend itself to those kind of blanket statements, so -- as everyone seems to say -- "let *your* ears be the judge." I just didn't want to say that without offering some way to move you a little further along the "your-ear-judging" path....
"Please -- anyone -- correct me if I'm wrong; but, the common wisdom seems to be: use the 45 if you can; if you can't, step up to the 300B."I guess that's true at the moment. Only a few years ago, it went more along the lines of "the 45 is overpriced, unavailable, and under powered, and the 300B is lush to the point of being bloated. Only the 2A3 is really neutral."
A few years earlier, the 300B was the only "real" SET, everything else lacked the last bit of refinement.
These sands are almost guaranteed to shift again. :^)
Other than power capability, the only technical differences among tubes that I know to be audible are linearity and mechanical resonances. Both are entirely related to the mechanical design, and in today's SET world you can get many different mechanical designs in each tube type. So I am especially suspicious of broad generalizations about tube types. (Of course, I am also a circuit designer, so I feel that circuit design and parts selection are at least as important.)
Hi Jim,I own Don Garber's Fi 45 (the prototype) and have had his X, 421A and 2A3 monoblocks here as well as a bunch of other SETs including a pair of JC Morrison's 6B4G monoblocks. I also happen to own the Shindo Cortese. Oh yea, and I know the guys at In Living Stereo. Granted, I didn't know them back when some of them were building their own SETs or when they were selling Komuro’s amps, but long enough to know your colorful characterization misses the mark. By a very long shot.
It is interesting though how little credit we give people who've worked in this industry for decades…
Anyway, that's a very generous offer you've made and I'll echo yours and the others recommendation - you have to hear things for yourself. Ideally with your own speakers. I'd also suggest Jeffrey shoot Srajan an email since he owned the Zu Druids and owns the Zu Definitions and has used a bunch of amps with them (srajan@6moons.com) including the Yamamoto A08S.
It seems to me having a 45-based amp driving the Zu Druids (sans sub) in a 35 x 14 x 12 room is an awfully tall order.
Listen, my congratulations goes out to anyone who has had even a remotely positive experience at one of NYC's upscale audio salons. And please forgive my 4:00 a.m. "color." Now, specifically regarding In Living Stereo. First of all, I even wonder if we're talking about the same people. You lament "how little credit we give people who've worked in this industry for decades." Honestly, no one I met there was more than a few decades old!Now, that said, granted, I paid them a couple of visits during the fall (of one year about four years ago, to be exact) -- i.e., a horrible time in NYC high-end retail, since *no one* is buying *anything*. (We're all waiting for holiday bonuses to be announced!) I got a *very* hard sell from these guys, who were clearly eager to unload some gear that they obviously didn't want and that I made perfectly clear that I didn't want either.
Their main listening room was set up such that auditioning the Cain & Cain Nearfield Abbys was impossible. (To their credit, I asked permission to rearrange their room radically, and they agreed -- which dramatically altered the listening experience to the point of their saying to me, "You're hired!") When we started talking about amplification, they insisted on a number of things: (i) the 45 tube is incapable of any legitimate modern audio use based solely on its low power output, (ii) no power amplifier in the sub five-figure range could possibly be considered a serious contender -- "decent output iron costs at least that much," and (iii) they had never heard of any of the amateur builders that are regularly discussed and lauded on this forum (e.g., Wright, Welbourne, Farber, Korneff, et al.) but decided that the gear that they were producing must be meant only for amateurs simply looking to get into the hobby.
There was more, but this strikes me as enough for now. I'd also prefer not to relay anything beyond plain fact (i.e., who said what and when) in this public forum. Suffice it to say that I left In Living Stereo less than impressed -- with them and with me. Ultimately, I was made to feel badly about myself because I didn't have tens of thousands of dollars to spend on a power amplifier. Look, as a New Yorker, I know what their rent must be on their little spot on W. 4th St. in Manhattan. So, I know the kind of profit that they have to generate every month to pay that rent. In fact, they "ran down" the Abbys as being "too cheap." That is, they flat out admitted to me that they weren't interested in carrying them because there simply wasn't enough profit potential in them. Terry Cain had a thing or two to say about your friends at In Living Stereo. And anyone who knew Terry would probably guess (correctly) that his characterization of the place and its people was just as "colorful" as you think mine is. Under the obvious circumstances, I don't feel at all comfortable saying anything more about Terry's business relationship with this particular retailer; but, I *can* tell you that Terry stopped sending people to In Living Stereo to audition the Abbys and started sending them straight to my apartment -- with my "cheap, hobbyist set-up" and all.
I don't know, Michael: it seems to me that your "(R)" may put you in a different league than the rest of us. Lucky you, but perhaps a bit of "(R)"eality needs to sink in before you realize that the average "high-end audio salon client" in New York City is too often treated like "(R)"ubbish. In fact, I really don't think that my characterization "misses the mark" at all. Rather, most often, *I'm* the one that feels like a "mark" in these places....
Jim,When I first went to ILS to hear the Abbys, I wasn't an "R" - I was an "A" and I owned the Fi X (by Don Garber not Farber) and used 45s. So in some ways our experiences are very similar, in other ways not.
Ah, Michael, it's New York City retail. Sometimes there's just no explaining it. As I said, I congratulate you on having a successful "audio salon" experience -- particularly one that I wasn't able to enjoy myself. Maybe those guys were more impressed by Don's Fi X than anything that I was considering at the time. If I recall correctly (although a memory like this would place me squarely back in high school), Don was the "don" of the resurgence of flea-powered audio in the West Village way back when. Perhaps there was an aura of respect surrounding his equipment at ILS. And forgive my typo: I was one key off and ended up recommending the work of an excellent photographer. If you're at all interested, "Portraits of Tibetan Buddhist Masters" makes for excellent reading while listening to trans-Himalayan chant....
During one visit while auditioning the Abbys, two other customers came in. They brought a CD they just cut - one guy was a performer on it (a singer) and the other the engineer. We were A/Bing the Abbys and Reference 3A deCapos using their CD. When we switched to the deCapo’s the engineer said “ahh that’s it” and the singer said “no the other speaker is much better”.New York City – retail.
And I thank you for the book recommendation – I will look into it. (and I wasn’t trying to give you a hard time, just making sure Don got his credit ;-) & yes Don's store - Fi - at 30 Watts Street was a trail-blazer for SETs in the US along with JC Morrison, Nori Komuro and Herb Reichert...
"Please -- anyone -- correct me if I'm wrong; but, the common wisdom sems to be: use the 45 if you can; if you can't, step up to the 300B. (Which implies that the 2A3 represents the worst of both worlds. Of course, 2A3 fanatics will likely jump all over this, saying that it represents the *best* of both worlds. Maybe both camps are "correct" in their own ways?)"Yes, that does seem to be the common wisdom. Right or wrong. Nice of you to offer Jeffrey a 45 audition. I still have a Korneff 45SE and
76/6SN7 preamp. It is very good for the money and Jeff is a great guy. But it sounds *best* to me with EML 45's which some say are not 45's. I dunno. Compared to the Cortese it sounds veiled. Someone I know said the same thing about the Fi 45 monoblocks. I have not heard them and he has not heard the Korneff. Every other SET I have owned seemed to empahsize the mid range at the expense of other frequencies. The Cortese does not; music just flows from it and it sounds balanced and *real*. I have not been to In Living Stereo but there is a post here from someone who has. Do a search. He said they were great no pressure people that made him feel like he wanted to buy something. Seriously, go have a listen and tell us what you think. What I can say is that I am now really enjoying music again and that is what this pursuit is about and I am no longer thinking about gear. And that feels great.
genuine advice and offers of practical help that I have seen in quite a while. Kudos to you.
Hi Jeff,I was in your shoes not so long ago - loved good sound, but could not afford any good amp. So, I got into DIY. Knew nothing about electronics, or soldering, or electricity. Now I could not be happier, even if I had an Ongaku. Having a gear is just possession, building and developing one is something else, that takes you way beyond. The urge to have a good amp can lead you to have somethin even better.....
If you get into experimenting, you can find your own way. Remember, everyone builds gear that is recious to their ears. Even the most expensive amps are no different. Only you can build what suits you best. If you don't know how to do it, don't worry. Plenty of folks on AA to help you start. I went that way, and could not have made a better choice.
long live diy!
Janos has a good point. I also went this route when I was in your shoes many years ago. I had the advantage that I was well versed in electronics, machining, etc. (I'm an experimental physicist by trade). DIY offers a very different prospective than store bought gear. One gains the satisfaction of one's own handiwork. It is not hard to make something that sounds good. It is, however, not trivial to make something that sounds great. The resources on the web are numerous compared to a decade ago. Start small and work your way up. Once you start DIY, you'll view commercial gear differently (i.e. they charge how much for that poorly made piece of crap?!?!!)On the otherhand, I retired from DIY when I compared the sound of my last DIY project (2 years of work) to Ken Shindo's entry level preamp.
Hi Rick,I agree with you 100%. DIY gives you a very different perspective, than the smelly - shiny magazines offer. You no longer long for 100K$ products, but value what it is for real: the sonics, and build quality.
I also experienced that with DIY one can achieve satisfaction, it is extremely rewarding. To go beyond the initial happy state, you need fellow diy-ers, with whom you can share your findings, and who speed up your research. I beleive that those, who sell great sounding gear started out as DIY-ers; and the interest was mated with professional knowledge. For those, who lack the expertise, we need to find instructions. I am super lucky to have found a mentor, who teaches me just about evrything I want to know, and who is patient and kind.
But, even with knowing some intricate details of the amps workings, one needs TIME to develop something that goes beyond, like the Shindo amp you describe. Your last diy project can bloom into an outstanding amp; you have to find what does the trick. It will probably take you thousands of hours of work and thousands of dollars in parts.
I guess I got to the point where I'm hooked to diy....... ;)
Janos
George used to make a 45 amp, the WPA2.25, and he had a used unit listed at the end of Tech Talk on his site with some other specials--possibly it's still available.You can modify the WPA3.5 to use the 45 by changing out the cathode resistor on the power tube to one with double the resisitance. George would have the details, but he might not agree to your doing that if you still want the return privledge on the pair you have. Incidentally, are they the newest WPA3.5 with the Sowter OPT?
If the Druids are 12 ohm, you might try the 16 ohm taps in addition to the 8. Also, keep in mind the optimal speaker postions in your room may depend slightly on which amp you are using.
Dear Jeffery,
Since you seem to want to hear a 45 amp, your best bet is to get in touch with Don Garber. I believe Don lives in Brooklyn.In my experience, a 45 amp probably will not solve your bass issue. However, to many, the 45 has a better mid range clarity than the 2A3. We did a comparison between my old Welborne 2A3 DRD and a Welborne 45 DRD. The 2A3 had better bass but the clarity and top end. Neither one was better, it depended on what you liked. This was an interesting comparison since it was with two amps using identical circuit topology and the same driver tube. You find yourself liking a 45 more for the mids and highs.
I've only listened to the Druids at shows so I can't really comment. My friend/boss had a pair on audition and he thought it did something weird in the bass. He was driving the Druids with a Art Audio Jota 300 B amp. He ended up sending the pair back. It may be that the 3.5's just can't handle the Druids on the low end. My old Welborne 2A3 DRD didn't work so well on orchestral pieces on my Ocellia Kedros speakers despite the 97 dB efficiency.
I believe firmly in matching amp and speaker. Sometimes, a combination just doesn't work despite each piece being a quality piece. Paul Joppa's comment on break-in is correct. If the amps are new, you may have to run them in for a while before you judge. At the end of the day, if you are not completely satisfied with the sound then punt. Take your time.
I would still go down to In Living Stereo to get a listen. While the Cortese brigade invaded your topic, I would suggest having a listen to the Montille EL84 push-pull amp.
I too can recommend Don Garber (Fi). I have a Fi Super X 2a3 amp, which of course is optimized for 2a3 tubes, but I recently tried 45's by switching the rectifier to a 5y3. Although this amp is perhaps not optimal for 45's, I much prefer them in the Super X. Tung-Sol, RCA, and Sovtek 2a3 tubes all sounded good in their own ways, the National Union 45's take everything to a whole new level of musicality. I'm using the Super X with Oris horns, so this is a biamped system with a Citation SS amp providing the bass power to JBL 4646 cabinets. I don't know how the 45 v. 2a3 would play out if I were running full range, but in any event the Fi amps are beautifully hand crafted and a great (relative) value. I don't think you can go wrong with one of Don's creations.
I recommend Utopia Audio 2a3 or 45, excellent amps, best regards MV
Jeffrey,This pursuit is a journey and for me it is close to the end. I could not have afforded the Shindo gear unless I sold a lot of the gear and tubes I accumulated over the last 13 years. What I have is not the best there is but is the best sound I have ever had at home. The Wright 3.5 is well regarded and if you keep it do consider a preamp from George to. There is synergy there that you may not get with something else. Been there too. I forgot where I read it but the Druids may not be 101db and a 45 may not be enough power. My speakers are 97/98 db and while the 45 sounded captivating it did run out of gas at higher listening levels. The real point is that while each DHT is a bit different a properly designed and implemented amp makes a bigger difference that the power tube. If I were close I'd go to In Living Stereo or Perfect Pitch Audio just to see and hear what is possible. In SW Florida we a lot more alligators than audio dealers. Have fun and don't go nuts or broke.
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