|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
71.128.198.229
In Reply to: The shortcomings of 'high-end' sound posted by njjohn on March 3, 2007 at 15:06:46:
With regard to the speakers, you are talking about apples and oranges (8 ohm/98 dB w/ dynamic drivers vs 4 ohm/91 dB w/ ribbon mids & tweeters). While I have not owned these particular speakers, I have owned their little sisters. I have had the Galante Rhapsody monitors and the VMPS 626 monitors. I have to say I was not highly impressed with the Rhapsody and would rank it only number 6 or the 11 different monitors I have had in my SET system. I thought they were warm and sweet in the midrange, but lacking at the top end. I also thought they were only average in delivery of detail and sounded veiled when compared to better monitors. I was running these with 45 and 300B amps. I think it would be interesting for you to try the Symphony’s with the OTL amp and see how different they sound.I only ran my VMPS 626’s in my Home theater system with high powered solid state amps. I do recall that they sounded better when I switched from 150 wpc to 350 wpc amps. I now have the VMPS RM30’s, and have to say they are clearly at another level of performance from the 626’s. While the RM30’s give a lively, dynamic and detailed sound, they certainly lack the richness of a SET system. I would have to think of them as a different type (flavor, species?) of sound.
I wonder if you are doing justice to the RM2’s with the amplification you have? Or whether you are doing justice to your OTL’s by using the RM2’s.
I would have to say that I have a strong preference for that SET magic, but certainly recognize that it is not the only magic in high end sound.
Follow Ups:
I had the Galante Rhapsody's in my system a few years ago. I thought they were great speakers, but it took a lot of time positioning them to sound their best. I had to rearrange the room so that I could place them along the long wall: 18" from the rear wall and 4-5' from the side walls worked best. Along the short wall they didn't sound nearly as good.FWIW, I had a conversation with Brian Galante years ago when he told me he never liked OTL amps.
Hi Gordon,These OTL's are I think 186 watts per channel. They are massive size amps. I am actually using a 300b preamp with them because the amps don't come with volume controls. It probably makes them sound better.
I believe the sound that I am getting is really not too far from a show quality sound, even though I am sure the speakers could be upgraded to a more advanced model.
I'm not really comparing speakers, nor amps. That is not the point of the post. Maybe I am comparing paradigms to some extent.
What I am doing is trying to understand what I have been hearing for a few years now. I am trying to understand and with some understanding I am trying to develop the conceptual tools to understand it more.
There is no doubt that the SET amplification presents a fundamentally different type of soundstage than the other system. I am just beginning to realize what the differences are and the post is an attempt to begin to understand it.
I am trying to delineate the variables involved, and to make suggestions about audio sound and how to better develop it.
I heard the best in show sounds. Putting everything the best possible including careful selection of cds and the highlight of an amazing vinyl recording, I also heard what it fundamentally lacks.
Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"?
Audio started with tubes, these push-pull amplifiers, that really had some great stuff. Then maybe the awful SS started, and then in response, tubes tried to show they could do similarly and developed a rather sterile sound.
Time to move on.
I do believe in SET potential more than the other stuff. I think SET amplification is better than anything in previous existence, but it has a way to go. Perhaps it's too locked into trying to be like the other guys. I've also heard stuff in other amplification, very interesting phenomenon that is also not named.
Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"?> >All the time with live music - heck, the whole construction of musical instruments is about tone! I'm assuming you're talking acoustic instruments here.
> > Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"? < <Last week. I was at the shop where my son takes lessons and I was talking to the shop owner and he demonstrated the tone of different guitars from the 30 - 40 versus modern units. He thend did the same for various vintage madolins. It is always about tone.....When was the last time you went to a concert and said wow listen to that image and check out that soundstage (sound terrain)?
Well you got me there the way you presented and structured your argument. I have to concede to what you are saying.Tone is important in an instrument and some musicians seem better able to get great tone out of an instrument or they have carefully selected an instrument or whatever.
I was referring to the whole sound of the music having nice tone partly because of how the audio/amplifier is presenting it. I think it is a little bit of a 'charm' in audio.
I couldn't agree more - it's tone that sends shivers down my spine and makes me use DHTs right through the chain, not just at the end of it. I've been using a totally DHT system now for months, and tried out my previous amp which has good indirectly heated triodes (2C22, 6AH4). Sounded warm, rounded. Took it off agin. DHTs just do something magical with tone - cymbals, grand piano - vocals, everything. Tone, tone, tone. Use DHTs right through, that's the secret.
My 6sn7/26/45 is not a completely dht amp because of the 6sn7 driver. If others don't know, that is a double idht driver, but really not a bad one in sound.But the 26 is a pretty amazing dht driver, and it seems to be a special match for the 45.
After months of listening, now I am sure that the 6sn7/26/45 is better than a 717a/45 which is a pentode driving the 45. I have not directly compared but the 717a/45 is probably better than a 6sn7/27/45 with the 27 being a idht.
I can set up only one pure dht, which would be a 300b preamp with a 26/300b. It really was a pure tone sound especially noticable in bass. There were no overlaying harmonics. I really was not able to fully go with that type of sound yet but I'm sure at some point I'll have to look into it again.
The 717a pentode driving the 45 is really a nice sounding amp. But maybe with really extended listening over months, you do notice it sounding "warmer, rounder" as you say with the idht.
Not to slam idhts or pentodes drivers, because they can have their place in some situations. I just fired up for the first time in a long time a 6sn7/76/300b and I really just enjoyed all the harmonics and dimensionality of the amp. An idht can just take a 300b further into almost like a harmonic/dimensional/impressionistic sound as can a fi primer 6sn7 in itself.
Andy, we agree often. Is a 26 in the dht amp that you are referring to?
Hi - I have several different arrangements. Right now I'm listening to 3A5 into 1H4 into 2a3, but I have other and better ideas. Andy
Right I am listening to a 12B4A linestage into a KC1 > 112A > 183. Heaven. I hope to get a RE 134 linestage.
The things I am most interested in are tone, presence and dynamic swing. These three things when done properly can trick the mind right to the edge of believing that one is in the presence of live music...right to the edge before you fall back to reality when conscious thought kicks back in......I left those audiophile / hi-fi things such as imaging, sound staging, detail behind years ago. My interest is how close can one get to real fidelity... and is the physical presence of a growing playing together conveyed (not whether it sounds like a live group is in my room). I don't think I could sit and listen to a sextet playing all out in my living room.....
There seems to be a lot of talk in these forums about getting the feeling that there is a "live" band or... playing in your room - the "real" effect. Personally, I get moer blown away by amazing things that can be done only in a studio and have little to do with "live" music. Hendrix's studio work comes to mind as well as some of the great hi-fi recordings of the 50's? and 60's - RCA living stereo etc... The great recordings of the british invasion and psychadelic groups. The sound can swirl all around you and the way the instruments are miked and mixed is an art form in itself - presenting a whole other experience than a document of a live gig. I've been to plenty of great live concerts - I don't think they can be completely and accurately reproduced (although I've heard some put out by major labels that are pretty awesome i.e. early/mid 70's Miles). Studio recordings can have a singular magic and beauty all their own and since discovering SET amps I have become totally mesmerized by what can be heard.
So Hendrix did better than what he did at Woodstock?What he did at Woodstock is just an incredible masterpiece. Spurred on I'm sure by the half a million people there.
I've seen master jazz musicians play around the country some. True the traveling band they usually have are not as good as their regular band, but they can bring some really good young talent with them.
But you know what? When they play at the Blue Note, The Village Vanguard, or whatever, it is just the best there. They play their best there.
What Ella did in Berlin was unique to Berlin. It could not have happened anywhere else.What Sonny Rollins did at his first performance of his own band in I think what was the first live recording at the Village Vanguard is a timeless piece of art. Nothing he ever did in the studio can touch it as far as I can tell. Well it didn't hurt to have Elvin Jones there.
That big Weather Report hit when Jaco Pastorius was in the band, was a great studio song. But when I saw the live performance of it, Even though it was at a university, they played it with so much more power and emotion.
In fact, just consider Woodstock. All those groups outdid themselves. It was a unique event considering the political times, the counterculture movement, and just the elements of the situation.it is so unique to its liveless of it all, then it can never be duplicated again. No concert could ever be like it, and nothing in the studio could ever touch it.
sorry John - Woodstock was great but there were some very mediocre (at best) performances - Country Joe and the Fish? How often do you cue that one up? It is well known that Hendrix's band with the added members was not nearly as tight as the original Experience or original Band of Gypsies. If you watch the complete dvd of Hendrix at Woodstock it is discussed by Mitch Mitchell etc.. Of course it was a monumental event but as far as the ultimate in sound reproduction - I doubt it. Outdoors, windy etc... Hendrix was awesoe no doubt and a live event is an experience - the Star Spangled Banner was iconic - but the studio creativity on Axis Bold as Love and Electric Ladyland etc... was where Hendrix really shined and it is also well documented that Hendrix loved the studio work the most and toured to raise money so that he could finance the studio work. Of course you know that Electric Ladyland Studios was a primary (if not the main) focus of his during his short lifetime. All this stuff can be read about many places with lots of testimonials. I love seeing groups live but there are also many drawbacks like idiots who talk non-stop or hooters and hollerers - technical problems etc... I don;t think one can discount the importance of creation in the studio.
Actually, I was thinking about it and "Kind of Blue" was created in the studio. Great things take place there."Electric Ladyland" is something I never really heard and something to look forward to someday.
Country Joe was the bomb. What was the great line? "be the first on your block to have your boy come home in a box". That was one of the most important statements of the era as well as Crosby, Still, Nash and Young singing "Four dead in Ohio". And another great line a bit earlier by Buffalo Springfield: "There is something strange going on here. There's a man with a gun over there, telling me I got to beware".
The line considered famous by Dylan "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing" was much less important".
They were calls to a young generation that really knew how to fight for a cause.
Unfortunately, Disco and Reganomics were soon to follow - war protests have beeen around forever - All Quiet on the Western Front etc... Many of the "protesters" grew up to drive SUV's and work for the "man" or maybe open a really expenxive organic health food store if they still had a bit of woodstock in them. That's if they didn't od or take too much acid and get put away. Look at someone like Dennis Hopper who stood for a lot that was radical then - what is he doing now? Armani suits and collecting expensive paintings. A far cry from when he was living in a commune in Taos, New Mexico.
The "woodstock generation" voted for, and supported the war in Iraq - ???? Country Joe failed to get through to them and his music was weak as well.
I know what you mean. My interested isn't in trying to duplicate a live band in my listening room. I don't think that is really possibe under most livable conditions. Rather, it is to get a certain sense of presence that makes one unaware of the fact that a streo system is playing. You are aware of the fact that there is an actual group playing togeter as opposed to sound reproduction.
| ||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: