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I'm a trying to clear up a room here and so I am playing these very good otl amps with these speakers (VMPS RM2's) to see if I want to haul them downstairs to the basement and put them in storage. Well the sound is so good that I decided not too.So now I am trying to understand the difference between this sound/set-up and a 300b parallel amp with Galante Symphony speakers.
Otl's are about as clear as you can get. They have great tone, the sound is great. Airy yet can be penetrating. Notes are real nice. There's not much wrong with high-end, it can be very good.
The sound is still a little bit over there by the speakers. It doesn't float into the room towards the listener. There is a tad of seperation between the music and the listener. But it is still engaging to some extent and it just presents the whole of the music very nice. Instruments are seperate and clear. I could certainly live with it. It is excellent especially if you don't know other possibilities.
The parallel 300b is a John Hogan amp. It has vintage transformers.
The sound is way more hard-hitting. The horns and instruments now have a sound that can blow you away. Picture yourself in a subbasement jazz club with a table right in front of the band and the musicians are in an hypnotic trance. The horns are blowing away and they're all off in whatever space they go in.
I'm not really a jazz fan going to hear jazz in Lincoln Center or Carneigie Hall. I'm a jazz fan in these NYC subbasements where music can be transformational. I'm not a rock fan in Madison Square Garden. Give me a smaller space like the defunct Fillmore East or smaller. Music in the right settings is not nice: it's powerful.
We have to start looking at these other variables. Thrust, impact, etc..
If that is what a little distortion does, or if that is what happens when sound bounces around the walls of a small performance space, and some opts and stuff can pick it up or mimic it, then we need to look at it to get to the total experience of sound/music.
Follow Ups:
I alluded to this the other day. I do think there is a "sound" that high-end audiophiles like that is not necessarily closer to the real thing. I think it's impressive particularly when the listener hasn't experienced "live" too often, and mistakenly associates "spectacular" to "real."When I attended the HE 2006 show in Los Angeles, the opening track on the Usher demo CD got a lot of play time. The imposing choir and orchestra fused with a rock accompaniment, putting forth some unique music. I liked it enough to buy the CD. So when I played it on the home system, that bombastic sound was gone, and everything was merely there. I also noticed the recording wasn't as good as I initially thought. Although I heard the microdynamics, and it had more of that "unspectacular" character of the real thing, as other tracks played, I realized that I was still hearing that "stereotypical" bombastic high-fidelity that often lures audiophiles. And the semblance to the real thing was bettered easily by my best recordings.
Conversely, I did play several of my recordings at the show, and it sounded either "saturated" or "boring" on most of those same systems. The "spectacular" audiophile sound seemed to be a *required* element of the recording to bring out the strengths of typical high-end systems, which is a sense of extreme dynamics (which I think is a false one), and more of a "impress first" mode, without worrying about later. Mainly because this kind of sound tends to sell equipment most-effectively.
And like most audiophile recordings, I play it several times at home, and lose interest in it shortly thereafter. For any interplay that may have been going on in the performance was lost in the puree of sound. The essence of the performance is lost. Great selling tool, but good music that's been compromised to sound "attractive" to audiophiles. It may have been a different story if it did sound more like the real thing. But then it may not have grabbed my attention at the show. The lure that made me purchase the disc in the first place.
One of the things folks in the bizz must suffer through.When I demo gear I dont bring audiophile music just real fun music that gets me going and if the system or gear is good this will come through but when folks demo my loudspeakers has to be a girl with piano or other audiophile type bombastic music.I hide these disc from view they almost always ask to me for it or bring there own stacks,this music shows little of what a good loudspeaker design can do. Kind of like a topless girl in public guys notice for sure but after a closer look maybe not as nice as you thought but hey it got your attention..Just part of sales just smile and give it a spin.
Hi John, When I listened to an OTL amp, it sounded almost exactly like my unmodified Sonic Impact amp. The music is almost steril and does not wrap around me like my/your 300B amp does. On another topic: we just painted the inside of our house in prep to list it, so I've had to shuffle many things. As you know, I sold off my Edgarhorns to help fund our business and have been listing to the 1951 Stromberg-Carlsons in beautifull BR corner cabs. Well, I was moving my office and put my Omega Super 3Rs on top of the SCs while I painted the office. I decided, just for grins, to hook up the Omegas to see the difference between the SCs and Omegas. I am soooo sorry I did that. The Omegas suck compared to the SCs. I still can't believe it, they are thin, nasily, lack bottom but greatly detailed....and I can tell exactly where the music is coming from. No sound stage what so ever. It might be that instead of a 10X12 office they are in a 27x32 family room....do you think that would have an effect? Cheers.
I have really enjoyed the super 3's I have. I had them at my desktop and they were great. When I stepped back a few feet from the desk, they also sounded real good like that too.Some of the vintage speakers are just really good. Their engineering was pretty amazing.
Maybe single drivers don't match up sometimes to two and three way speaker systems especially some vintage one.
In certain situations though, they can be preferred or have an advantage.
The single drivers are more upfront, and maybe I prefer them with the upfront sound of the 45. The two way and three way speakers have a little more of like getting lost into the speaker, more dimensional, and they fit the 300b very well.
I like both effects. Both are different effects but they seem to arrive at similar in the room realism.
You probably know more about speakers than I do. You had the Edgarhorns. I wish I could hear them.
Hi John, I should have added that the Super 3Rs are great close in speakers. In my office, as computer speakers, they are great. I think that they are just too small for that big room. Cheers.
> > > Omegas suck compared to the SCs. I still can't believe it, they are thin, nasily, lack bottom but greatly detailed....and I can tell exactly where the music is coming from. No sound stage what so ever < < <Yep, that sounds similar to how many people describe the Fostex sound. Despite that and being at the end of a less than tonally well-developed system, Omega fans (sycophants?) on their forum have loved / hyped these types of speakers.
A word of caution to the new: never blindly believe what one reads on forums, *especially* manufacturer forums. It seems to me that Omega guys upgrade their 'speakers far too often to indicate long-term satisfaction, value, and therefore quality. One needs to look at performance over time and read between the lines. To qualify: 1) I do not think anything malicious is going on @ Omega (perhaps the customers lack a little understanding of what is required for long-term satisfaction tho) - Louis seems a genuine guy, that has to make a $, 2) yes, djn's family room is probably too large and the Omegas may perform better if properly set up, 3) Omega's new hemp drivers may improve the transduction of the tunes, relative to the Fostex drivers, and 4) this type of forum and purchasing behaviour is not unique to Omega. 'nuff said.
Cheers
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
You nailed it down: the "high end sound", the trademark sound of the decade is the sound that wants to (and does) impress, yet it is impersonal, without integrity, balance, and soul. Shows how impressive machine and technology is. It favors the presentation of those players, who are virtuoso with their instruments, and can play with exceptional speed, dynamics, or volume. The play of these performers will really shine on such systems. However, from such preformances you rarely get even a glimpse of what the music has to tell you. You cannot connect to the music itself, only with the virtuosity, the ability of the player, and get the same adrenaline rush that he or she feels.
The other way (real fi ;) is the way to connect to the music. This type of setup will not favor the adrenalin-virtuoso. Their play will be unmasked, without the boost of added clarity, resolution or magnifier-glass-type imaging they will prove to be what they are, you won't be able to connect to them anymore; their brilliant cloak gone you will find that they don't understand the music, and can't connect with it nor connect the music to you. With an A/B test this will show that the real fi system has less in every aspect, because the spectacular performance degrades to a simple performance, where tha player tries to outdo its peers in one aspect or another.
The high end sound requires the "audiofile" labels, specially engineered records with special performers. The real fi systems let you play any work from interpreters, who connect to the music, and let you enjoy it even from mp3, (heavens protect the audiofiliac for saying such heresy.;)From my point of view, the sound and music is the most powerful teacher that we have, that can affect our life at the deepeest level. Real fi begins when we can connect deeply to the recorded music, when music fills more than the air. When music can break a long standing depressed mood, cure from a cold, or cheer you up and give back your will of life after a trying long day. This is a most fragile link.
LOL, the difference between high end sound and real fi sound is like the the one between sex and love....... :) For the observer both look the same thing, but on the personal level it is something entirely different. For the same reason, real fi is also something very subjective, most personal. High end is the exact opposite, the ultimate impersonal shine and glamour, the biggest breasted woman with the most sex partners in the highest budget porn movie.
long live DIY!Janos
You took it a step further and expressed it much better than I did.But SETS do offer the possibility of both: (yes, your wife could be the sexiest woman in the world.)
Virtuoism does come alive. For example, since I've been into these 45s and 300bs, I just cannot get enough of listening to the trumpet of Donald Byrd. The way he sails on top of the music with his tone and delivery. Or the incredible virtuostic guitar of Ben Tavera KIng on 'Border Crossing' the way he creates vivid experiences of events with his playing, and the emotions that accompany these events.
But you do experience the whole of music with the 'real' hi-fi which is why I am totally absorbed in the musical offerings of Art Blakely and Horace Silver. These guys put together 'bands'. There is a 'wholism' to what the band puts out.
It's just a matter for high-end to focus away from as you say what is "impersonal, without integrity, balance, and soul". This means identification of other sound variables.
This is what it's about. Identifying sound variables that relate to the whole effect. Like denatured food, the best has been thrown away in favor of refinement. The priorities are not balanced.
"Like denatured food, the best has been thrown away in favor of refinement. The priorities are not balanced."Well said! :) I think this tendency is one of our age, it is true for everything we see and touch. Every aspect of life is getting more artificial, balance gets very hard to find. As long as the masses are pursue cheap food in plastic wraps, diet soda in metal cans, utterly useless tv programs loaded with commercials - well, so long the haute cuisine, fine wines, and refined music is but the dream of a few.
In the long past history the world was divided into caste systems. Contrary to assumptions e get from basic history knowledge, not only the indian society was divided into castes, but every other. The highest caste was that of the teacher, who was the priest and judge in one person. This caste was responsible for keeping the balance in the society: they moderated the warrior class, who fought for virtues and values. I will not describe the ancient society, as this is not a history forum. :)_)
However, nowdays we lack completely the teacher caste, it has entirely disappeared, and there is no authority to lead the masses. (Indeed, the fighter class has also disappeared, leading to the lack of honor.) The only authority is personal gain, which awakens avarice, that makes most of us blind to the real values in life. That's why +10dB of ear-splitting hiend is chosen over an enchanting whisper. We want to prove that we can do better than everyone else, and we fall in the trap of one-sidedness.
Well, such thoughts can stirr while you listen to Tsaikovskij drinking gongfu cha..........long live DIY, and above all, the music, and the musicians who create, and recreate it! Praise the muses!
With regard to the speakers, you are talking about apples and oranges (8 ohm/98 dB w/ dynamic drivers vs 4 ohm/91 dB w/ ribbon mids & tweeters). While I have not owned these particular speakers, I have owned their little sisters. I have had the Galante Rhapsody monitors and the VMPS 626 monitors. I have to say I was not highly impressed with the Rhapsody and would rank it only number 6 or the 11 different monitors I have had in my SET system. I thought they were warm and sweet in the midrange, but lacking at the top end. I also thought they were only average in delivery of detail and sounded veiled when compared to better monitors. I was running these with 45 and 300B amps. I think it would be interesting for you to try the Symphony’s with the OTL amp and see how different they sound.I only ran my VMPS 626’s in my Home theater system with high powered solid state amps. I do recall that they sounded better when I switched from 150 wpc to 350 wpc amps. I now have the VMPS RM30’s, and have to say they are clearly at another level of performance from the 626’s. While the RM30’s give a lively, dynamic and detailed sound, they certainly lack the richness of a SET system. I would have to think of them as a different type (flavor, species?) of sound.
I wonder if you are doing justice to the RM2’s with the amplification you have? Or whether you are doing justice to your OTL’s by using the RM2’s.
I would have to say that I have a strong preference for that SET magic, but certainly recognize that it is not the only magic in high end sound.
I had the Galante Rhapsody's in my system a few years ago. I thought they were great speakers, but it took a lot of time positioning them to sound their best. I had to rearrange the room so that I could place them along the long wall: 18" from the rear wall and 4-5' from the side walls worked best. Along the short wall they didn't sound nearly as good.FWIW, I had a conversation with Brian Galante years ago when he told me he never liked OTL amps.
Hi Gordon,These OTL's are I think 186 watts per channel. They are massive size amps. I am actually using a 300b preamp with them because the amps don't come with volume controls. It probably makes them sound better.
I believe the sound that I am getting is really not too far from a show quality sound, even though I am sure the speakers could be upgraded to a more advanced model.
I'm not really comparing speakers, nor amps. That is not the point of the post. Maybe I am comparing paradigms to some extent.
What I am doing is trying to understand what I have been hearing for a few years now. I am trying to understand and with some understanding I am trying to develop the conceptual tools to understand it more.
There is no doubt that the SET amplification presents a fundamentally different type of soundstage than the other system. I am just beginning to realize what the differences are and the post is an attempt to begin to understand it.
I am trying to delineate the variables involved, and to make suggestions about audio sound and how to better develop it.
I heard the best in show sounds. Putting everything the best possible including careful selection of cds and the highlight of an amazing vinyl recording, I also heard what it fundamentally lacks.
Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"?
Audio started with tubes, these push-pull amplifiers, that really had some great stuff. Then maybe the awful SS started, and then in response, tubes tried to show they could do similarly and developed a rather sterile sound.
Time to move on.
I do believe in SET potential more than the other stuff. I think SET amplification is better than anything in previous existence, but it has a way to go. Perhaps it's too locked into trying to be like the other guys. I've also heard stuff in other amplification, very interesting phenomenon that is also not named.
Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"?> >All the time with live music - heck, the whole construction of musical instruments is about tone! I'm assuming you're talking acoustic instruments here.
> > Recently at the VTV show in New Jersey, I heard a push-pull system sound way better than anything else. It had such a nice tone to the music, but when was the last time you were at something live and you sat there and thought "what a nice tone"? < <Last week. I was at the shop where my son takes lessons and I was talking to the shop owner and he demonstrated the tone of different guitars from the 30 - 40 versus modern units. He thend did the same for various vintage madolins. It is always about tone.....When was the last time you went to a concert and said wow listen to that image and check out that soundstage (sound terrain)?
Well you got me there the way you presented and structured your argument. I have to concede to what you are saying.Tone is important in an instrument and some musicians seem better able to get great tone out of an instrument or they have carefully selected an instrument or whatever.
I was referring to the whole sound of the music having nice tone partly because of how the audio/amplifier is presenting it. I think it is a little bit of a 'charm' in audio.
I couldn't agree more - it's tone that sends shivers down my spine and makes me use DHTs right through the chain, not just at the end of it. I've been using a totally DHT system now for months, and tried out my previous amp which has good indirectly heated triodes (2C22, 6AH4). Sounded warm, rounded. Took it off agin. DHTs just do something magical with tone - cymbals, grand piano - vocals, everything. Tone, tone, tone. Use DHTs right through, that's the secret.
My 6sn7/26/45 is not a completely dht amp because of the 6sn7 driver. If others don't know, that is a double idht driver, but really not a bad one in sound.But the 26 is a pretty amazing dht driver, and it seems to be a special match for the 45.
After months of listening, now I am sure that the 6sn7/26/45 is better than a 717a/45 which is a pentode driving the 45. I have not directly compared but the 717a/45 is probably better than a 6sn7/27/45 with the 27 being a idht.
I can set up only one pure dht, which would be a 300b preamp with a 26/300b. It really was a pure tone sound especially noticable in bass. There were no overlaying harmonics. I really was not able to fully go with that type of sound yet but I'm sure at some point I'll have to look into it again.
The 717a pentode driving the 45 is really a nice sounding amp. But maybe with really extended listening over months, you do notice it sounding "warmer, rounder" as you say with the idht.
Not to slam idhts or pentodes drivers, because they can have their place in some situations. I just fired up for the first time in a long time a 6sn7/76/300b and I really just enjoyed all the harmonics and dimensionality of the amp. An idht can just take a 300b further into almost like a harmonic/dimensional/impressionistic sound as can a fi primer 6sn7 in itself.
Andy, we agree often. Is a 26 in the dht amp that you are referring to?
Hi - I have several different arrangements. Right now I'm listening to 3A5 into 1H4 into 2a3, but I have other and better ideas. Andy
Right I am listening to a 12B4A linestage into a KC1 > 112A > 183. Heaven. I hope to get a RE 134 linestage.
The things I am most interested in are tone, presence and dynamic swing. These three things when done properly can trick the mind right to the edge of believing that one is in the presence of live music...right to the edge before you fall back to reality when conscious thought kicks back in......I left those audiophile / hi-fi things such as imaging, sound staging, detail behind years ago. My interest is how close can one get to real fidelity... and is the physical presence of a growing playing together conveyed (not whether it sounds like a live group is in my room). I don't think I could sit and listen to a sextet playing all out in my living room.....
There seems to be a lot of talk in these forums about getting the feeling that there is a "live" band or... playing in your room - the "real" effect. Personally, I get moer blown away by amazing things that can be done only in a studio and have little to do with "live" music. Hendrix's studio work comes to mind as well as some of the great hi-fi recordings of the 50's? and 60's - RCA living stereo etc... The great recordings of the british invasion and psychadelic groups. The sound can swirl all around you and the way the instruments are miked and mixed is an art form in itself - presenting a whole other experience than a document of a live gig. I've been to plenty of great live concerts - I don't think they can be completely and accurately reproduced (although I've heard some put out by major labels that are pretty awesome i.e. early/mid 70's Miles). Studio recordings can have a singular magic and beauty all their own and since discovering SET amps I have become totally mesmerized by what can be heard.
So Hendrix did better than what he did at Woodstock?What he did at Woodstock is just an incredible masterpiece. Spurred on I'm sure by the half a million people there.
I've seen master jazz musicians play around the country some. True the traveling band they usually have are not as good as their regular band, but they can bring some really good young talent with them.
But you know what? When they play at the Blue Note, The Village Vanguard, or whatever, it is just the best there. They play their best there.
What Ella did in Berlin was unique to Berlin. It could not have happened anywhere else.What Sonny Rollins did at his first performance of his own band in I think what was the first live recording at the Village Vanguard is a timeless piece of art. Nothing he ever did in the studio can touch it as far as I can tell. Well it didn't hurt to have Elvin Jones there.
That big Weather Report hit when Jaco Pastorius was in the band, was a great studio song. But when I saw the live performance of it, Even though it was at a university, they played it with so much more power and emotion.
In fact, just consider Woodstock. All those groups outdid themselves. It was a unique event considering the political times, the counterculture movement, and just the elements of the situation.it is so unique to its liveless of it all, then it can never be duplicated again. No concert could ever be like it, and nothing in the studio could ever touch it.
sorry John - Woodstock was great but there were some very mediocre (at best) performances - Country Joe and the Fish? How often do you cue that one up? It is well known that Hendrix's band with the added members was not nearly as tight as the original Experience or original Band of Gypsies. If you watch the complete dvd of Hendrix at Woodstock it is discussed by Mitch Mitchell etc.. Of course it was a monumental event but as far as the ultimate in sound reproduction - I doubt it. Outdoors, windy etc... Hendrix was awesoe no doubt and a live event is an experience - the Star Spangled Banner was iconic - but the studio creativity on Axis Bold as Love and Electric Ladyland etc... was where Hendrix really shined and it is also well documented that Hendrix loved the studio work the most and toured to raise money so that he could finance the studio work. Of course you know that Electric Ladyland Studios was a primary (if not the main) focus of his during his short lifetime. All this stuff can be read about many places with lots of testimonials. I love seeing groups live but there are also many drawbacks like idiots who talk non-stop or hooters and hollerers - technical problems etc... I don;t think one can discount the importance of creation in the studio.
Actually, I was thinking about it and "Kind of Blue" was created in the studio. Great things take place there."Electric Ladyland" is something I never really heard and something to look forward to someday.
Country Joe was the bomb. What was the great line? "be the first on your block to have your boy come home in a box". That was one of the most important statements of the era as well as Crosby, Still, Nash and Young singing "Four dead in Ohio". And another great line a bit earlier by Buffalo Springfield: "There is something strange going on here. There's a man with a gun over there, telling me I got to beware".
The line considered famous by Dylan "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing" was much less important".
They were calls to a young generation that really knew how to fight for a cause.
Unfortunately, Disco and Reganomics were soon to follow - war protests have beeen around forever - All Quiet on the Western Front etc... Many of the "protesters" grew up to drive SUV's and work for the "man" or maybe open a really expenxive organic health food store if they still had a bit of woodstock in them. That's if they didn't od or take too much acid and get put away. Look at someone like Dennis Hopper who stood for a lot that was radical then - what is he doing now? Armani suits and collecting expensive paintings. A far cry from when he was living in a commune in Taos, New Mexico.
The "woodstock generation" voted for, and supported the war in Iraq - ???? Country Joe failed to get through to them and his music was weak as well.
I know what you mean. My interested isn't in trying to duplicate a live band in my listening room. I don't think that is really possibe under most livable conditions. Rather, it is to get a certain sense of presence that makes one unaware of the fact that a streo system is playing. You are aware of the fact that there is an actual group playing togeter as opposed to sound reproduction.
Once I talked to my audio friend about my recent hopla with alnico speakers horns ,tubes ,radio and that I hardly can stand what was a dream of"high end " to me for many years. He said that it's called a "real-fi" Isn't it a nice term??
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