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In Reply to: Gordon Rankin: "2a3's..what a waste of time"...So what you're really saying is... posted by Iczerman on March 1, 2007 at 15:07:50:
That is just expert opinion which I agree with.I haven't had a chance to study the 2a3 all that much mostly I guess because of lack of interest. It's a SE tube and it's very nice but in the finest of comparisons, the 45 is better.
1) 45
2) 300b
3) 2a3
4) 845
Just in term of overall sonics, I would rate them as above. But they are all very good.
Follow Ups:
although I'd squeeze the 10/10Y in closely after the 45!
He JohnHow do you rate a tube that you haven't listened to?
Have you listened to all of the above tubes with the same drivers and PS too?FWIW, None of these are the BEST sounding triodes....but they will work out in a pinch. :)
<> What do you like the best?
The thing about the 2a3 too is that the amps tend to generally sound good at a pretty low price point.Also, say if I put a 50 tube in 5th place. That does not mean I would trade my 50 amp for a 45. Cause I wouldn't.
I am just speaking in what I think are general potential terms. Maybe it's like the different major TV station networks. Maybe CBS is top rated and really the best but you might find your favorite show on NBC. A 2a3 amp just might be the best sound for anyone's particular situation or musical interests.
I find each SE output tube so great and interesting. They are like different single drivers, each with unique qualiites. It does not mean that you cannot come to an understanding of what is generally the best. But you also have to look at the different qualities and appreciate them.
Each single ended output tube has unique and interesting qualities that the others don't. They are invaluable in that way. But as far as sonic qualities and potential, overall, some seem to be capable of being better than others.
I guess each output tube is just a set of characteristics with its own operating points and ingredients. The 45 just seems to hit the mark the best, and the 300b just has some overall pretty amazing sonic qualities. The other ones are real good too.
Just because I know the 45 can make a better amp, it does not take away from me fully enjoying the 300b. I know what the 300b can do.
Anyway, any opinion is open to evaluation and research. Anyone can take what is said and see if they think it is true. That's what I do with Gordon's or anyone's opinion. I check it out for myself, and then I get my own opinion of how right it is or not.
perhaps njjohn is in some ability to apply inductive research and come to his conclusions...The Zen in me (not much left these days - be damned science) has me thinking that you can not 'know' until you have directly experienced, but even then not; any event can apply only to the person experiencing the amp, within a certain system and temporal context. Eeck - I just scared myself.
That said, I have heard none and would probably have a similar list to njjohn, tho heavily qualified. It is difficult to make comparisons between output tubes, because each has different needs (to 'optimise', if such exists) and sounds different depending on implementation. Example: I like a certain type of musical presentation. I experiment with different tubes and come to clearly prefer the 45 over the 300B, using the same driver and basic PSU config. I then change the driver and operating points of the 300B and find I like this more than the 45. I do the same for the 45 amp, yet it sounds less appealing to my ears. And so on and on. Then despite my general distaste for 2A3s, I drop an EML 2A3-S in the 45 amp; better. Is it more 2A3 or 300B? A few more tweaks to the operating point, more power and a further improved presentation...
Comparing output tubes is tough, expen$ive, though perhaps enjoyable. Inductive and deductive research are required, and even then one can gain an understanding only for themselves, though may develop some idea of what output tube and config someone else may like if you (and they!) know what flicks their switch musically.
Now, the system context. Only kidding. I have cr*pped on long enough for this month, and it is only the 1st.
Cheers
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
I wasn't too impressed by the 50 tube at first. Changing the operating points really made a big difference. On paper some of these things may seem right, but you really have to try and listen.
Well I think you get the point.IMHO, the driver tube along with operating levels of all tubes, are perhaps more important to the qualities of the resulting sonic product than simply the OP tube. Especially when considering the signal emminates from that tube in the first place.
You have aptly indicated this along with the fact that the driver/OP combination can be tweeked to optimise the qualities of both.
Because of that, I usually wonder what driver tube was in the amp that someone comments about...having formed an opinion based on the last tube rather than the first. I always wonder what speaker was used.
An 801 driving a 45 or 2A3 makes a very nice amp.....for your High Eff horns. A 45 driving an 845 makes a fabulous sounding amp for all the rest. Even better is a 3C24 or 35T driving an 845 or copper plate GM70. :)
AV8 and AV20 make pretty good driver tubes too....and that is based on my limited experience. But we have drifted off to DIY land now. :)
Later
D
I cannot disagree with your point that it is a good deal related to personal perspective and interest ("one can only get an understanding only for themselves").Because even though I have come to the understanding that the 45 can make for a better amp than the 300b, there are times that I prefer the 300b to the 45. When I am not so concerned about some variables and interested in others.
The 45 no doubt is superior at the mids. At capturing best the main gut and thrust of the music as say Eric Clapton's guitar during a solo, or Donald Byrd's trumpet solo. The 45 is going to give it the emphasis that you can only dream that you want it to do it that way. Nothing takes the true gut of something out of the music better than the 45.
On the other hand, when you are just interested in impressions, shadows, innuations, sonic bliss, etc., the 300b is what I want to hear.
A further point about all this is that why try to make a 300b amp like a 45 or a 45 amp like a 300b? Better yet to take the unique characteristics of the SE output tube and develop it along its potential lines.
What will I choose in the long run? I'm not sure what direction I will ultimately end up most interested in.
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