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In Reply to: SET regrets anyone, want to go back to SS? posted by astrostar59 on January 21, 2007 at 12:23:16:
My experience with these two amplifiers which I recently purchased seems to be different to anyone else on internet that had compared the two...
I have decided to keep the Pass F3 amp and sell the Yamamoto A-08S amplifier. Anyone interested (?) - I have an European address and the amp will soon appear on Ebay.
And before you say - ahaa, of course, the fellow does not have enough power to drive the speakers with the less powerfull Yamamoto, let me tell you that I am using the BD design Reference Compact monitors, with AER MD3 speaker units, which have a 108 dBV sensitivity. My Yamoto has more than enough power to drive them (16 ohm speaker units), yet in my system and in for my taste, the F3 amplifier beats the Yamamoto amp in the following (important to me) departments: rhythmic drive, bass definition and coherence of sound. I use Django TVC S&B volume control and the source is either Sony DVD 9000ES player with Allen Wright Modification 5 level, or Kuzma Reference turntable/Moerch DP9/Pass DIY Pearl phono.I tried quite a few output and rectifier tubes in the Yamamoto A-08S amp, including mesh plate RGN1064, 274As(these sounded best to me), the 45 globes, Emission Labs 45 tubes and 2A3C Shuguang tubes (these were to me best sounding output tubes in the amp).
I have a problem to understand how come I am the only one who has compared these two amps of the people that have published their opinion on the internet and have decided in favor of the Pass F3 amp.
I must say that the original Zen Pass DIY amp (which I still have as a back-up amp, playing in my kitchen)beats many a tube SET amplifier, which I have heard, even on not such a very high sensitivity speakers as I have now.
I decided to mention this here, not to criticize tube SET amplifiers, many of them which I like a lot (and the Yamamoto is no exception to this), just to say that there are very good solid state amplifier out there, which don't have to blush when confronted by tubes and may even sound better...
Follow Ups:
I also had both of these amplifiers at the same time (while evaluating multiple high efficiency speakers)and easily prefered the Yamamoto. I found the F3 to be a wondeful sounding amplifier period. I would have had a difficult time choosing between the F3 and my pair of Wavelength PF Gemini's (EML 45's)and a number of other SET amplifiers on hand. I found the A08-S to be a unique stand out among many years of amplifier ownership and comparisons. Keep in mind that some of my favorite amplifiers are vintage EL84 driven from manufacturers' like Pilot, Eico, etc.
I love the way my simple system sounds, and so do most music lovers who visit. But, not all who's ears I respect care for the sound of my setup. You would probably be in the no like camp. That is why there are great alternative products of all types. Like your wonderful sounding F3. I think that it is outstanding that both the F3 and Yamamoto can offer world class amplification at under 3K.
Thank you for your comments, chopper87 - I read your review on the Yamamoto A-08S amplifier, when you compared it to the F3 amp and the gain clone - when you published it, and even before when you asked people on this board if they were interested in your review of the Yamoto...
Well, in my system the bass and coherence which you describe there for the Yamamoto is not what I get with it in my system and the one which my F3 is capable of...
The Yamamoto has a more diffuse sound in my system, generally speaking, and especially in the bass region (and I don't consider myself particularly a bass freak). And I don't want sound like the Yamamoto is not a good amplifier, but if it does not perform to me as well as the F3, which I owned before the Yamamoto, there is not point in me keeping it.
By F3 serving me better, I don't mean I am completely happy with my system as it is and I belive, I could get even a better amp for my system, be it tube or solid state. I don't think I could built a better solid state amp than the F3, but I have a feeling I can make a better SET amplifier than the Yamamoto, even though the components alone will cost me more than the Yamamoto.
Hook, line and sinker
..
To infinity and beyond!!!
Which is about 250kV. Not many speakers need that kind of voltage.
I heard Yamamoto A08 amp twice .Once with C&C Abbys and second time with Zu Druids.I'm pretty sure that in both cases the speakers were responsible that I was under impressed. I don't remember if and what preamp was used but there seems to be consensus that A08s needs one .TVC (yes I also have S&B )is already going out of fashion and it is not easy applicable.TRy active pre. Since you're bi-amping in my opinion you need at least buffer stage . How do you expect crossing plate SS amp and BR box on 200Hz to horn and 45 SET to perform on classical material?? I'm sure it sounds good , everything sounds good but how good ?? How about Yamamoto A09 (300b) on bass and 08 on AER??Regards, L
I don't think your consideration applies in my case...The speakers which I have do cross over at 150Hz, but an (speaker integrated) SS amplifier is used to power the bass unit, being preceded by an RCRCRCR crossover before the solid state bass amp.
The Yamamoto has plenty of gain with the high sensitivity of my speakers and an input impedance of 200Kohm and runns the AER MD3 in the horn and the input of the SS bass amp from it's OPT secondary.
I wonder what makes you think the TVC unit is not able to put properly good signal into the Yamamoto amp?
I am pretty confident in my conclusion and have therefore posted the Yamamoto on ebay.de a few moments ago.
If you're confident and happy with Pass amp, good for you and happy listening. Others opinion doesn't matter much if system performs up to your expectations. I'm running (partially and without much of luck) similar system . Klipshorn bass +Azura (oris like but leCleach flare ) 204Hz horn and now Lowther DX4 (old cone with beauhorn short phase plug) . I plan to eventually get it right and sell it as it's a dead end .
150 Hz is still high.
Fact that TVC technically should and does work fine doesn't mean that it will sound good musically .Personally after 2 years of TVC use I start to appreciate drive , dynamics (and yes colorations of active pre ,even that cheap one like ANOte M1) I don't want to sound like I'm very experienced or so- I'm not ,just most of the AA recommended gear performed poorly when I had the chance to hear it. Best regards, L
If I was listening only to the Yamamoto, I would not be sure, but since the problems I hear dissapear with the use of the Pass that is another matter. The Pass has 10K input impedance and much lower gain.
I love 45 SET but they dont do bass well so when I use 45 SETs I biamp.Of late listening mostly to all dig and class A ss but miss the sound of the 45 so will set up another biamped system.
The Yamamoto A-08S can be fitted with 2a3 tubes with no modification, other than bypassing the voltage dropping resistors, which I use with 45 tubes in the filament supply to reach exactly 2.5VDC supply.And with quality 2A3 tubes, such as the (single plate)2A3C Shuguang type, the bass improves a lot in comparison to the 45 types (including the EML45 tubes), but not to the degree it would become equal to the Pass F3 amplifier. If I was to keep the Yamamoto I would definitely use it with 2A3, rather than 45 output tubes.
Maybe the Yamomoto is just not good enough - try a different SET amp. The ones I have heard do not posess problems in the bass with properly matched speakers. SS has provided a leaner presentation which on short sessions can seem tighter.A lack of dimensionality and full bass can sound faster and tighter until the veil drops and you realize it was a trick of the ear for a moment.
Being high sensitive also does not mean high efficient - I know nothing of your speakers but many higher efficient speakers (including horns) than my 93db non horn standmounts actually sound harder to drive - especially when the speaker adds more crossovers and start getting into 3+ way designs with separate amps driving one thing and another amp driving something else -- to me it creates more problems and more clutter is getting in the path.
Maybe that is why something like the Audio Note Ongaku integrated is in existance because an integrated if you do it right has a whole pile of advantages over separates. 25+ watts of SE also helps rather than 2.5watts.
I have heard SETs that can produce good bass definition[owned near 30] if loudspeakers are very carefully matched, but never out of a 45 SET under 35hz they dont do so well for me.Some of the costly wavac SET I have owned where wonderful with my giant horn systems.2a3 to me does sound better in low bass than 45 but 45 is so right above 40hz. So why not just biamp with a amplifier that does as well in the low frequincys as the 45 SET does for the rest.Or just use a loudspeaker thats limited to 35hz or above not many hi-eff systems that can run on 2 watts are able to get to 35hz.I agree with your clutter comment but my horn systems are 1st order most midranges use no crossover,Bass horn can use passive 1st order or active.So these systems are easy loads for SET.One in link the whole 3 way horn systems 102db can run off 1 SET amp, tweeter uses transformer to pad down levels.Thought about bringing into limited production [pic doesnt show the horn mounts I added later]. But what a pain to build and ship, so I never did....
Your experience in the world of SET is obviously far more extensive than mine which so far has been mainly limited to Audio Note and Cary. But it seems to me there is something missing in the discussions because the Audio Note SETs seem to offer more power in number of watts and just generally listening. Their AN E speaker is not a horn and is around $94db sensitive and will easily reach into the 20hz range 18hz -6db. I just don't see a whole lot more bass being needed and it certainly played loud enough on their Kegon 8 watt power amps with M8 preamp.Their level 5 set-up presented an incredible visceral power and in room instrument pressure that is as good as anything I have heard even from much bigger loudspeakers -- ultimate volume may be sacrificed but that's not the goal here.
I would expect that with much higher efficiency and sensitivity that SETs would have an even easier time -- so something is amiss - because Krell/Levinson/MF/Bryston/YBA/Class/Sim Audio are a bunch of big time SS players and I don't hear any better bass or anything else from this lot that would make me go back to it.
great photos -- room size is of course a factor I am leaving out -- the AN's simply are not built for very large rooms.
nt
You are not alone. I prefer the F-3 too for the reasons you state. I had a Korneff 45 which was very good but the F-3 surpasses it in all areas except human voice. My speakers are PHY-HP SAG 30's in Auris enclosures from Holland.Have a look at this 2A3 preamp. The seller has not seen or heard it and will not give a trial, but he said there were some in the EU. Have you seen it? It looks like the goods as a compliment to the F-3.
Les
I forgot to mention the music I listen to - 85% is classical music (a lot of baroque), 10% jazz and world music, 5% rock. So, it is not that I prefer an SS unit because I prefer rock music (as some might believe SS to be the choice of rock music listeners), but I do believe any music, including the classical music - has to rock!
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