 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
68.230.67.50
...or can an otherwide-SET amp have paralleled triodes in a function and still be properly called an SET?
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Follow Ups:
Since it seems nobody has really answered the question yet - NO, a single output tube is *not* a requirement of SET, according to the literal expansion of the acronym nor any definition I've heard. In other words, there are parallel SETs - more than a few of them, really. Not too uncommon with 300Bs. Gives a good 16-18W instead of half that. The Mastersound Ref, a parallel-845, would be another example. You can be single-ended, triode output stage, but simply more than one.Whether or not it's a good ideas is another question. I'm not a designer, but some do say that splitting the signal between tubes results in some sonic penalty.
With the really heavy iron out there - 805s and GM70s - my attitude is 'why bother' with a parallel design?
Hi,I've been a spectator in the SET arena and like many newbies are very tempted to dive into the SET world to experience first hand some of the music magic that is so often mentioned. My main speakers these days are an old pair of Innersound MK I's. These electrostatic hybrid speakers, are on paper, very efficient at around 94db. However, they are also notoriously wicked load with swings from 2ohms to 18ohms.
I've come to love the transparency of these speakers and it's imaging, the thought of multiplying these characteristics with that of SET seem great.
I'm currently using a Cary 98SLP preamp and a pair Nuforce Ref 8's. Would throwing a pair of SET amps with 300b's be a crazy thing to do? Are SET and Electrostatics two technologies that just don't mix?
Gerald
This is a follow up posting to my initial question of whether Set amps and Electrolstatic speakers are a match. With the kind help from many in this forum, I was turn towards a pair of Antique Sound Lab 1006 845 DT for my Innersound MKI's.I'm on my third week with this setup and it's been great. I've never had a tube amp, never mind a Set amp. My past listening experience were with my MF 3.2CR and my Nuforce Ref 8. Both are very good amps in their own rights and my 9 yrs+ with them were enjoyable too. Both provided the tight bass slam and the high end details, especially the Nuforce with my Innersound. However, I feel I never knew what the meaning of Musicality until I had the ASL 845's hooked up with my innersound.
I can tell the highs and lows were not as sharp and tight as it had been with my Ref 8, but I can immediately realize the difference in the musical aspects of everything it play. Overall, I'm clearly enjoying the music more now than before and I find I'm listening longer and louder without fatigue that I use to experience.
It's been only 3 weeks, but I think I'm hooked on Sets already... No turning back now :)
What I did to help compensate for the cruel impedance curve of my Innersound speakers that range from 50 ohms - 2 ohms at 20Khz, I added the Zero's autoformer to function as my connection between my speakers and amp. This did help clean up the highs and lows. So, overall, I'm one happy dude :)
THANK YOU ALL who help guided me on this path!!!!!
I am using a KR audio electronics VA350i (30 watt SET integrated) on my Acoustat Spectra 2200 fullrange electrostats. It drives them and sounds fantastic doing so. This is inspite of the fact that the Spectras drop to 2 ohms in the bass and in the highs. I use them on the 4 ohm tap. I am not sure that ALL SET amps will perform to this level but I sure that many of the better ones will sound amazing on the Innersound speakers.
I'm sure many SETS would faulter with the generally horrid impedance swings which are often characteristic of ESL designs, however there is one particular SET of which I own which was expressly designed with ESL's in mind, the EAR 859/869....under none too ideal conditions this amp has stunned a room of listeners with its effortless ability to drive virtually anything thrown at it, including Martin Logans, and Quads, of which it sounded truly excellent, besting some huge, highly regarded and overtly expensive PP tube mono blocks, and this is a SET rated at ~13wrms, indeed an amp of uncanny ability.
A key factor I believe with SET's is in the winding of the irons, and this is where the fish are separated from the fowl...it takes some seriously cluey knowledge of transformers to produce this knd of magic...!
Thanks for that tip. I will certainly keep that recommendation in mind. I've been directed to the Antique Lab 1006 845 SET as a starter. Others also had good experiences paring with ESL.Are you familiar with this amp?
Gerald
As a matter of fact about 3 or 4 times a week in the different forums this very question is asked and I use my set amps on my martin logan monoliths biamped of course but I also biamp my PP amps to.
Electrostatic speakers have become much easier to drive today because of hybrid designs and the transformers have a lot more output and the panels have closer stators increasing efficiency.
Naz does this and I do this to and when I run my logans is no beaming with the set amps whatsoever.I dont have much beaming to start with having wide panels but it definitely has a wider sweet spot with the set amps and on the quads they are a match made in heaven.
Another thing about SET DHT amps is they are not nearly as sensative to back emf as say an el34 pp amp is.That helps the effects of the impeadance change to where you dont lose the high end.
Michael,Thanks for pointing out the benefits of not beaming, as my innersounds do have that flaw, I think much more so than your ML's. The innersound panels are just flat and curve like the ML's. So the thought of enlarging the sweet spot along would make the move to SET worthwhile.
And I'm glad you noted the tolerance to impedance swings as the lab test done by Stereophile on the later model of the innersound speaker noted that the impedance swing was between 2-18 ohms which is pretty wide. I know my model of this speaker probably suffers from the same wild swings, that's why I went with a Solidstate amp initially.
Gerald
I've built many SETs from from tiny to my current parallel 845s that run my ML ESLs Very successfully with only 90db/m efficiency. I've said it before ... ESLs love SET's, provided you get a reasonable match efficiency wise. Having had all sorts of amps in my system over many years, IMHO merely going to DHT SET from other topologies yields a larger improvement than the choice of (recognised) tube. 300Bs should do the job but 845 would be safer.Rgds,
Naz
Naz,Glad to hear your success with mixing ESL's and set.
Can you explain further regarding your remark on DHT SET? I'm really really a novice when it comes to SET.
Gerald
Hi Gerald, Directly Heated Triodes such as 45, 2A3, 300B, 845 etc. The Cathode is essentially the heater as opposed to Indirectly Heated Triodes such as 6BQ5, KT88 etc where the heater is a separate filament that heats the Cathode. A search of this and DIY forums will keep you busy as long as you want and will further your knowledge.Good luck, you won't look back.
Rgds,
Naz
Naz,Thanks for the explaination.
I guess I have some more homework to do on this subject :)
It sounds like from the postings so far, that DHT SET is perfer for driving electrostatics speakers.
Gerald
Can't hurt to try it. For the past several years I've been driving my Quad ESL-57s with a parallel single ended 300B power amp. Sounds great to me.
JimL,Can you tell me how many watts was your 300b amp?
Jeffrey made the point regarding not maxing out the wattage of the tubes for best results and just wanted to see what wattage may be best.
Rated around 16-18 wawtts/channel, but as you know, SET ratings are fairly flexible - depends on how much distortion you're willing to tolerate. :-)
...50-Watt Explorer 805s, to drive much-less-sensitive Quad 989s VERY well, full range. Eventually, the 989s' treble balance caused me to replace them, but I encourage you to try it.But if you value macrodynamics, you might consider an 845-based SET of 20 or more Watts.
Where are you?
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
I always thought SET was best at lower watts... does a SET amp lose much at 20 or 50 watts as the amp you had?How does the 845 compare to the 300b in charateristics? The 300b seems to have a lot of virtues.
I am in NJ.
Gerald
...and circuit topology and execution affect the sound of an SET amp more than the choice of triode output tube.Personally, I think SETs benefit MORE than higher-power amps from having more power than one 'needs', because most SETs' distortion curves are more linear than those of push-pull or solidstate amps. The latters' curves are usually quite flat until the amp approaches or reaches clipping, at ehich point the distortion rises VERY rapidle, but an SET's curve increases earlier, that is, at lower power. Said another way, the distortion plot of an SET is straighter and rises more quickly. SO...it's best to keep an SET oparating in the lower, say, quarter of its power range rather than at half and higher power.
The 845 and 805 triodes were designed as radio-frequency-transmitting tubes, but they work VERY well at audio frequencies. A typical 845-based SET will have 20 - 25 Watts while an 805-based amp will have 40 - 50 Watts.
NJ, huh? Next time you're in Phoenix, look me up.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeff
He should be ok with 57s with 20watts set I would think..I use 20watts on my logans with PP or SE but of course its from 125cps on up.
You used a 50 watt amp to drive your Quads in the past. Do you think I should go with something in the 40-50 range or will the 20-30 watt range would be adequate for my hybrids.Also, is there any particular amps you would recommend.
Gerald
...of your listening room, and your estimation of how loudly you listen.My SET/e-stat numbers were 86 (I think; they were Quad 989s), 3200CF, and not very loudly = 95dB peaks.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeff,My innersound MK I's sensitivity is rated at 92db.
My music room's dimension is 18x22x8 which gives ~ 3200CF as well.
I used a sound meter to make sure I don't over do it with my music and I find I like to listen at 82-87 db volume setting.
I may have gone a bit overboard when did the sound treatement for my room. I put up about 20 cornings 503 fiberglass panels, so it's not a lively room.
The innersound is a bi-amp configuration so I only need the SET amp to drive the panel or mid to high frequencies. I have an innersound amp that takes care of the bass frequencies (from 150 hz and below.
Do you still think 20-30 watt is right for me or can I do with less and try those fame 300b's?
Gerald
You speakers are 6dB more sensitive, so that would be the equivalent of your driving yours with 12-1/2 Watts relative to my driving mine with 50. So 20 Watts ought to do just finely, especially if you're driving 'only' MR and treble.I suggest you look for an earlier version of the ASL AQ1006(845).
Here http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?ampstube&1169432037 is one pair, and here http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1172356561 is another. I BELIEVE the 1st-listed pair, with the shiny chassis, is the 1st version, while the 2nd pair, with the extruded-aluminum chassis, is v.2. I'd be inclined toward the 2nd pair 1st.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeffrey,Just wanted to let you know that I made an offer for that second AQL listed and the seller has accepted.
So I'm looking forward to trying out that amp on my innersound hybrid.
Thanks for your help in my amp selection!
Gerald
My 2 recommendations are the affordable Ken-Rad in parallel or staggered plate versions, VT-231 or not, seems not to matter. In the really-high-end bracket, the Tung-Sol RoundPlate. These are fairly rare and sometimes rather expensive, with prices varying from maybe $60 to $250 EACH depending on condition, with most in the $100 - $150 range.I find the KRs to be VERY well balanced, with a touch of warmth, very clean MR and treble, with the latter being at just the right level for me, which is NOT too much. Most other 'N7s are a tad tizzy for me. Some find the KRs' bass to be stronger than that of other 'N7s, but I've not heard that.
The RPs are about the same as the KRs but are slightly more spacious. I'm now collecting RPs, slowly and carefully.
V1 is the Voltage-gain stage while V2 is the driver. That means that you'll hear differences among tubes in the 1st position more readily than in the 2nd. Both 'N7s have the triodes connected as SRPPs; see linked thread for that discussion. BTW my dealer highly recommends old RCA blackplates for the 6L6; I bought 2 pairs but I couldn't hear diffferences in the short-term.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubediy&n=108914&highlight=845+jeffreybehr&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
Jeffrey,I found this link for the AQL amp and it talked of the need to upgrade the caps for this amp to avoid arcing over time. Did you experience this problem with your amp?
http://www.10audio.com/asl_1006-845dt.htm
Gerald
.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeffrey,I found this link for the AQL amp and it talked of the need to upgrade the caps for this amp to avoid arcing over time. Did you experience this problem with your amp?
http://www.10audio.com/asl_1006-845dt.htm
Gerald
...what Voltage your main-PS caps are. If they're 500s, they're OK.BTW they're in series for the amp's almost-1000VDC main powersupply.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeffrey,I'll have to check when I received the amps.
Base on the reviews I've seen this is an amazing little amp. Although knowing the crude impedance curve that the innersounds are known for, swings from 2-16 ohms. I'm wondering if there's any tweaks that can help buffer this for the amps.
I've heard of people hooking in transformers between the speakers and the amps. I don't know if they did that to help stablize the impedance the amp sees. Would you know anything about that?
Gerald
You might experiment with the 4- v. 8- v. 16-Ohm taps. As you move up, the apparent loudness increases, but the amp has no more power at one v. any other tap. You'll just have to determine which sounds best overall.The transformer you write about probably is the Paul Speltz Zero. I'd listen a long time without it before spending at least $450 for the Zeros.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeffrey,Did you find those Zero's a worthwhile investment? What affect did the Zeros have to the music in youir setup?
Will this transformers help buffer the amps?
Gerald
...the amp drives, I think to double or triple. So if you have a speaker that varies from 2 to 10 Ohms, it'll now vary from 4 to 20 or 6 to 30.Sometimes amps are more able to drive different impedances with flatter frequency responses than other impedances. If one had plenty of power available, I suppose I'd try the lowest-impedance output taps into a substantially higher-impedance transformer/speaker load. I THINK you'll get the highest damping factor and the flattest frequency response that way.
But maybe someone who KNOWs rather than I who am merely speculating will help here.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Ah yes, the fun part of customizing the sound to my liking...yum!I've been rolling some tubes with my Cary SLP which uses some of the same tubes as the AQL. Both has the 'N7s tubes which I have a small collection of now. I did manage to get my hand on a pair of Tung-sol round plates. That's what I listen to now in my Cary pre-amp. I also got a pair of wartime RCA's and another pair of sylvania's from the 50's.
I'm glad I'll be able to try out some of these old tubes in the new amp. The tough decision is why to invest those RP's...keep them in my pre-amp or put them in the power amp.
I'll have to remember you point on the 6L6 and keep an eye out for those RCA's.
I've been taking my chances on ebay mostly in collecting tubes, do you have a good source for NOS?
Gerald
.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Jeffrey,Thanks for helping me make my decision. A SET amp is definitely going to be my next amp....and you read my mind on what would be my next question, which is what amp you would recommend :)
Thanks for helping me find the audiogon listing. This is very helpful.
Thank you all for you great advice and info!!!
Gerald
This amp is all power supply with no electrolytics in it to modulate their nasties into the music. All polypropolyne and oil caps in the supplies.Weighing in at over 100lbs for about 20wpc.The power supplies in SETs ,especially running into stats, should be unconditionally stable and pure. Most manufacturers don't spend the money required for a really good power supply because it is very costly both for the parts and the from the physical size required to do it ( think shipping,WAF and all that). The Wyetech (along with a few others) are one of the only amps I know that actually execute a great power supply in a commercial product.
And yes you can make a SET work with a stat. Depending on your taste the 845 or 211 may work well depending on the speaker.
Good Luck
AJ
I was looking into a 300b amp that was being listed in Audiogon made by Morrow. It seem to have pretty good build quality. I believe he also makes 845 amps too.The link below is his website.
http://www.morrowaudio.com/300B1split.htm
No, you can have multiple output devices and still be single ended. Tubes aren't even required leave alone triodes.
Russ
...is NOT an SET, since the 'T' means 'triode', at least in this Asylum.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
