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I'm at the top of the slide - looking down upon yet another "slippery slope".I've been exposed the the "SET" sound in the worst way. I recently heard a Melody 2a3 integrated amp with Triangle floorstanders and found myself in a puddle of drool.
Now, I'm left wanting...all of it. However, I need to do it little at a time.
Today I was lucky enough to hear my beloved Paradigm Ref Studio 20 V.2's with an ASL 300b and a Modwright sw9.0 pre - though it got quite loud, both listeners conceded that the amp began to puff out on demanding standing and double bass material. I know orchestral will really give this amp/speaker combo a tough time as will lingering organ and long bass notes. I'm a mixed bag of music genres but I love my Paradigms to death.
Which of the amps (because they're in my price budget) will allow more bass control at or above moderate listening levels without puffing out on me:
A 300b amp in parallel design 18w/ch( not push/pull)
or Single ended 6c33c design approx 18w/ch
I'm also considering a push pull 6c33c design but my main concern is that I'll be giving up some of my current el34 sweetness to the 6c33 tubes dynamics in a SET or PP triode design.Any and all help is truly truly appreciated...I've got bigger problems but this is the only one I wish to acknowledge at this moment LOL.
Happy Holidays to you all!
Follow Ups:
I wanted to thank all that replied to my post. For now, I am extremely happy with my mostly analog rig based around a Quicksilver line stage and an Anthem Amp 1 - el 34's.I went back to my local SET guy and listened again at length, 2-3 hours, to the Melody and Triangle rig. This time I came armed with my fave tunes and my Ref 20's in tow ;)
I set up my trusty speaks with the 2a3 melody and sat back and waited...waiting to be disappointed etc. due to the lack of power for my little guys...I waited and waited. They sounded great! The amp was doing wonderfully with my med eff 89db/w ref 20's! It wasn't as extended on the top end like the triangles but I knew off the top that triangles can be considered "bright" with the wrong equipment.
Well the melody with my Ref 20's were not as open and airy - lacked the same type of top end "sparkle" that the triangles had but I attributed this to the amp as I know I've got great extension with the 20's in my rig. Talk about synergy...there's no match for synergy. You've got to match cables, source, amp, everything!
I was actually not as impressed once we swapped the triangles back in - I knew there was magic there but there wasn't that much of a difference between the floorstanding triangles and my ref 20's.
After listening to my tunes, I asked the owner to throw back in the FIM discs we had listened to last week - again, WOW...really WOW.
Then, one final swap, keep the same material and drop my ref 20's in...WOW much less of a difference yet again. The presence and imaging that I experienced with the triangles days before were still there with my speakers. I did note that the staging didn't get quite as wide as the triangles, only about 3-4ft outside of the speakers' placement but depth and presence was just as good. The triangles only bettered them by about 2ft max in terms of width of stage. Where I really liked the triangles was the airy extension, based on the tweeter I'm sure, that surrounded vocals, both male and female, with the Melody integrated.
I could see that the shop owner wasn't too happy that I had done the swapping because I had asked another patron of their opinion - they really liked my speakers and said that I should save my money.
Ok, twist my arm, I really want to spend more money on this crazy hobby don't I? Especially money that I don't have yet.
So, I folded, I spent some money, but I didn't by new equipment, instead I bought the FIM disc and other software we had listened to so that I could compare it at my home.
Guess what...sounds amazing! I know I don't have the same width of stage as the SET rig, and maybe if I were nuts I could lose some sleep over it but after playing some sweet music it all just becomes a distant memory.
I'm thankful for the experience I gained from you all - but also from the shop that allowed me to bring my trusty ref 20's in for a true a/b comparison. This is the 2nd time I've fallen back in love with my speakers from toting them along with me to a shop to a/b.
I know with more tweaking cables, tubes and such @ the shop I could duplicate the extra "air" and extension in treble and vocals that I heard with the triangles but I've already got that with my current rig.
I'd give the name of the shop to anyone in my area and heartily recommend them, if interested just pm/email me. The owner really is a good guy. I just knew that once I heard my speakers in the same system I wasn't going to spend a dime. I hope no hard feelings to you SET guys but I'm sure, with high eff speakers matched with the 2a3, 300b SE designs you can appreciate "synergy".
Right now, I've got it...I might as well use the $ I saved on more music.
Thanks again all and Happy and Safe holidays!
But I would say that you would be better off to bite the bullet and change out the speakers too.Reason - SET and Hi-Efficiency go hand in hand.
And that's where many people find the magic.
It will be less expensive in the long run, it affords you a lot more choices on amps/setups.
Your system will be more balanced, you will find more magic, and enjoy it more while spending less.
I have faith in my speakers so I will hang on to them for as long as possible or until I win the lottery and have a dedicated listening room all to myself...I know that the pairing and synergy of the amp and speakers is critical to achieving that "balance" however the recent listening session with the 2a3 based integrated and the Triangle speakers has really given me hope with re: med. efficient speakers with SET amps.
The Triangles were rated @ 91db/w and were floorstanders - the Melody 2a3 amp is rated @ 16w/ch but even though in p/p configuration the dealer stated 10w realistically at most.
What I heard was out of this world and I actually preferred it to the Mastersound Reference 845's and JM Utopias especially with price factored in; I could easily live with the Melody/Triangle combo and call it a day.
I figured a similarly powered SET amp with my med eff. bookshelvers would be my ticket to nirvana.
So, although the combo of my speakers with a SET amp may be less than ideal, I know it can be done and sound amazing.
Again, I've got faith in my Paradigms, I've heard them in rooms with multi thousand dollar gear, both SS and Tube, and I know they can perform. They perform incredibly in my room right now. I just know that what I heard @ the dealer can be achieved, I'm just looking for a "cheaper" way.
In the long run I don't see a speaker change for years to come as my kids are still young and too curious for equipment to move anywhere other than where it is. I'm married to the room and for the most part, to my speakers. I can still change what's upstream though knowing that it will not be neutralized or lost to bad voicing on the part of my speakers.
Thanks again for the input...it's good advice, and under normal circumstances I'd be going that route, but with limited funds, I see the natural path of progression would be the amplification and THEN the speakers as I feel my speakers are up to the task of great sound with SET.
If I'm totally askew from your point or if I've read it incorrectly please let me know...my wife tells me I don't know as much as I think I do. Yeah yeah yeah, I know this.
Merry Christmas and safe and happy holiday listening to all!
Perhaps I am prejudiced by my previous personal experiences where when I was "married" to a particular piece of equipment, I would have been better off to move on.Hope you find a good solution.
Whlle I am SET and horns all the way (the Subs are SS), there are some awfully good push pull amps out there.
I used to own a VAC 30/30.
Super amp. Great sound. I could live with it.
Happier with SET though.
Regards
wanting a new future so badly, but being bound so tightly to the past. Don't waste any money trying to fit SET into your terms- you'll just get compromised system and be unhappy with it. Wait 'til you can do it right with a good basic proven amp and true high eff speakers and save all the intermediate steps.
...speakers of less than high sensitivity* can be driven quite well by some SETs. I mentioned earlier that my introduction to SET bliss started with Art Dudley's review of the Antique Sound Lab Explorer 805s. I really perked up when he said these 50-Watt monoamps drove his Quad 989s rather well and sounded VERY good. Those were my speakers, so I bought new 805s.
I listen to mostly big-orchestra Classical and film music, my room is largish at c. 3200CF, and I listen at what I call moderate levels and what my wife calls way too loud--c. 95dB peaks at the listening position but usually lower.The 805s drove the 85dB-sensitive 989s (full range) to levels beyond what I wanted to listen at, and I was quite happy with the combination until I tired of the Quads' excessive (for me) treble energy. The replacements, Eminent Technology 8s, sounded great, but their 2dB-lower sensitivity was the proverbial straw, and the by-then-highly-improved 805s sounded hard and unattractive too often. Having been introduced to the great value of ASL products, I bought a pair of new Hurricanes; their 120 watts in triode did just finely for months. But the sounds of higher-sensitivity speakers driven by SETs kept calling to me, so I built my current dipole, open-baffle, line-array system and the new ASL AQ1006(845)s.
Eugene (?), I still believe you should save your money for a pair of 845- or 805-based SETs...or buy those 40-Watt 805-based SETs on AudioGon. Keep your speakers; buy something more sensitive (and dipole if you want to gain some spaciousness) when you can afford them.
As far as horns go, some of us think they sound even-more forward than normal monopole speakers, but others LOVE them to the point of obsession.
* I don't know if there's consensus on where 'high sensitivity' starts, but I herewith nominate 93dB as the beginning of that range. My OB dipoles are 97 and they sure qualify.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
but to me, a good part of the sound I enjoy is the due to high eff speakers. Most good high eff designs use minimal xovers, have very quick response & great dynamics. Many lower eff. speakers are made by damping one or more of the drivers substantially to match another, and/or using stiffer, heavier materials. These are just never going to be as nimble as good full-ranger drivers or pro sound motors. Also, many of these store-bought lower eff. speakers have very optimistic specs, including 'room gain',etc., compounding the problems.
I'm tri-ampimg a three way horn setup and feel I'm so far out there compared to most people that I wanna be sure I'm not saying to the original poster "this is the one and only best way" because of my own prejudices.Having said that mouthful - it seems to me that high efficiency and horns seem to "uncompress" the music improving the dynamics and making it more lifelike, or "magical"
...and that many of us treasure those dynamics highly. I put spaciouness and tonality on top.My OB LA system was intended to be a simple system, and for the main system it is, being 2-way with only a cap on the tweeters and a coil on the main drivers. These are driven by the ASL 845s. The bass drivers are driven thru an old Dahlquist DQLP-1 low-pass filter and by 2 channels of my Outlaw 300WPC/4Ohms-times-7 poweramp.
It and the ASL SETs sure do sound EXCELLENT.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Probably you could find a used pair of Antique Sound Lab AQ1006(845)s within your price range. Over 20 Watts. I have the new vertical version...
...and they sound VERY good. 22 Watts is 4.4dB more than 8 Watts; if the 300Bs were close, the 845 probably will get you there.Amps using paralleled output (or any other, for that matter) tubes are NOT SETs, nor are push-pull amps, but that of course doesn't mean they can't sound good or even excellent. Harry Pearson raved in 'The Absolute Sound's' new issue about the ASL Cadenza, an 845-based PP amps with 60 Watts.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Thanks Jeffrey,
Believe me, this was one of my first choices in SET amps...the 845 tube is at the top of my list for AMPS period.At the same store where I heard the 2a3 Melody houses a Mastersound Reference 845 pushing JM Lab Utopias and it was there where I was bitten by the tube bug.
It wasn't until my first tube amp, an ASL 1001 with kt88's, that I jumped down the slide into tubedom.
Alas, most of the 845 designs are just a tad out of my financial reach. I am really trying to keep it @ $1k mark and below which has forced me to look at 300b, 6c33c, and 2a3 designs.
There is the Dared vp-845 that occasionally pops up but I keep missing them and I have this ridiculous requirement about "never paying full retail" for anything. Must be some testosterone based disease or birth defect but I've been this way my whole life with cars, homes, etc. etc. about the only thing I've ever paid full for was my wife...ahem ahem still paying LOL but God love her, she "puts up" with my sick addiction to audio gear.
At any rate, I've looked into the 845 vehemently and "one day" as they say.
I'm actually thinking that I "live" with my trustworthy and quite satisfying Anthem Amp 1 (el34 based) for a while until I can find enough change in the couch for an 845 based amp.
This damned upgraditis is the dangedest thing!
What are your thoughts on the 6c33c based designs? There seem to be plentiful in my somewhat limited price range.
...so even a 6C33C-based single-output-tube mono amp might not be an SET.
I suggest you save your money for 845- or even 805-based SETs. Buying something in between just pushes your eventual goal out further.Here's a pair of good, used AQ1006s for $2K... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1171753535
...and here... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1171910667 ...is a pair of 40-Watt, mono, unknown-brand 805-based SETs in Virgina for a grand or less.
LOOKs good! 805 tubes are produced currently in China, and, in contrast to the 845, old-production 805s by RCA, etc., are actually affordable. When I owned ASL Explorer 805s (my 1st foray into SET bliss), I accumulated over a dozen US-made old tubes, some as inexpensive as $25.
BTW 40 Watts is SEVEN dB more than 8 Watts; that ought to do it.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Funny, I've been corresponding with that seller of the 805 monos. I told him that they look like meixing 805's and he could neither confirm nor deny...my gut guess is that they are but possibly re-badged as another maker. Nothing at all neg about the amps nor the seller, just wish I could find more info on the amps.I'm sure 845's are going to be my safest bet.
I've heard mixed reviews of 805's with bass capability and control. I'd be more apt to listen to real-world feedback and experience. Any chance you could chime in with you foray with 805's and their grip on the lower hz or lack thereof?
I actually auditioned an 805 based integrated with 300b's IIRC as the driver tube with my paradigms and was sadly disappointed. I was lucky to have a local seller post in "craigslist" and I brought my speakers over for a listen. This seller had some amazing equipment, huge horns that stood approx 8ft high and a gorgeous Micro Seiki with 3 tone arms...amazing gear etc. so I was really pumped up about the amp.
30 secs. into the audition I had to check the wiring to make sure polarity and such was correct because I heard no bass at all. Further, I could hear the amp being taxed as the vocals and such became distorted as well as the mids when double bass was played; the amp just couldn't take the load.
I politely listened for about 5 min more but unfortunately, I left that day and the seller was quite miffed that I didn't buy the amp...I made an excuse that there was probably something wrong with my speakers but I knew immediately that the amp was a no go.
At any rate, this is my worry with 805 based amps...do you think the amp was bad and the seller was upset because I didn't get suckered into buying it or is this a characteristic of the 805 tube and med. efficient loads?
Again, your feedback is greatly appreciated and I'm already seeing hope at the end of the tunnel for my beloved paradigms!
...about the 805s and Quads was the quality and quantity of bottom-octave bass they would produce. Also, and I think contributed mostly by the speakers, ALL the bass info was of the same cloth, had the same sound, as all the rest of the frequency spectrum, and that was very high quality indeed.The ET8s are 3-way speakers with mag.-planar MR and tweeter and a normal, closed-box bass system with an 8" driver. I drive them initially with the 805s, full range. At low to medium listening levels, they sounded great--lack of bass was NOT a problem--but lack of overall power was; the amps simply clipped too much. Even driving only the MR and treble (the 8s are biwireable), the amps simply ran out of power too often.
Those amps are now driving, very succesfully, the MR and tweeters of a pair of Genesis 350s.
I can't even speculate on your experience with the integrated amp.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Hello Eugenio
Not exactly sure of your budget, but here goes.The speakers you have a not too efficient at 90db and the bass extension is down to 36hz, not too low.
So, I would look at an Audio Note Meishu 300b integrated. It is very popular, has been around for a while as is a proven performer. I have many friends who love theirs, with either standard set or some have added tweaks as well.
You will then be into the 300b sound in the best way possible on your budget.
If you have a bit more, go for an Audio Note M2 and a set of Conquests. I run these and they are mint. I love them.
OR you could build a 300b integrated Audio Note kits for around 2k US.
In the longer term, I would look to sell on your speakers and go for a horn hybrid such as the Zingalis or one of the 2 way Audio Note units which have serious bass responce and 95db sensitivity.
You will then have the beautiful 300b sound from your existing speakers, but added dynamics, imaging and bass extension.
Anyone who tell you you get loose bass and no upper treble extension from SET's have not heard a well matched system. When you go tubes, you say goodbye to grain and grit, but also don't have unlimited watts too hand, so Wilson Watts are not on the menu. The current market is flooded with low efficiency multi unit speakers, pumping out lound but not so nice music. Get some efficient speakers and tubes on the driving end, and you will not go back.
... is where you love the SET sound but can't conceive of giving up your speakers, and they are not really efficient enough for typical SET amps. Happens to (almost) everyone. :^)Push-pull is a different beast. In fact (see the OTL discussion below) it is two different beasts. But I like SETs, so I won't go there...
Comparing the parallel 300Bs with the 6C33, a lot is going to depend on the particular amps. Parallel tubes are prone to a slight smearing, depending on how well they are done and on how well the pair are matched. But the 300B is much more linear, so it will have less distortion especially near the maximum otput. If the 3C33 is linearized by a small amount of feedback (say 3dB to 6dB) that will help, but you will lose just a bit of the magic at lower levels - perhaps comparable to the parallel-tube problems, though quite different. The quality of the output transformer is a major player as well. All else being equal, that could become the deciding factor.
As always, it would be best to live with each amp for a few weeks before making a final decision. Usually not possible, but still one should be aware of the ideal before making compromises.
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