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After googling "lush/liquid/sweet 300b amplifiers" and then reading the many professional reviews of 300b amps a common line I see is " this is not your typical lush 300b amp". However for the life of me I have yet to find mention of the exact "typical lush 300b amp" they are comparing the reviewed unit to.I am looking for an amp( or posibly amp kit or even an amp design to have custom built) that is opposite to my push-pull 845 to see which sound I like better. I have Bastanis Prometheus speakers so since bass is already handled by a powered woofer, bass is not at the top of my list. Ideally the other trait it would have (if possible) would be to still be articulate, knowing my dis-like of non-oversampling DAC's, I definitely prefer my music with detail and especially for the mostly complex like music I listen to. The only one that people here mention is Cary but consensus says it may fall short with this latter requirement.
Follow Ups:
The 300b is a little sweeter to begin with that say a 45 or 2a3 tube. Maybe that is the reason for the idea of lushness. But depending on the driver tube, you can manipulate the sound in various ways.I find that an idht driver tube is more 'lush' than other types of driver tubes. Examples of the idht that I am familar with are the 27 and the 76 tubes.
The 6sn7 is a double idht so that is a little more along a lush sound but I wouldn't really call it that. If you use a fi primer circuit, I would describe the sound as a little more enchanting and mystical.
The opposite of that can almost be using a 10y driver tube, a dht that is very articulate but I have found that it is hard not to be fatiquing.
I find that a pentode driver has more of the best of both worlds, not really sweet but full, and pleasant with good articulation.
A pure dht amp can be more primary in the sound. Maybe it does not have the second order harmonics at all, but can be pure and elemental in the sound. It is more of the opposite of lush.
So, I guess between my fi primer circuits, 300bs, 6sn7s and 76 tubes in my Hogan amps, I'm all "lushed" out. I've been called worse I suppose. Too much articulation wears me out. I like the edges rounded off just a bit.Maybe I need to hear a good, articulate 45 amp so I can understand the difference.
I think you just have these great opts in the amps and the various directions are all welcome. With ac across the board, and with everything interacting with each other; that is, the opts, the ac, the set characteristics, and if the 6sn7 is really a fi primer circuit, you have additional dimensionality and harmonics to almost a mystical degree, you have something that is real potent and perhaps way more interesting than a more sterile high-end direction in sound.I think you might be pointing out flaws in the left-brained language being used to describe the situation, where the whole thing is really more of a right brain, or primitive type of brain thing, or emotive type of thing. Maybe you are saying you really prefer a right brain sound to a left brain one.
I heard very old Western Electric speakers. Left brain cognitive thought might say they suffer from a lack of wide enough band width, and right brain might know that these are the best speakers ever made.
I think sound and music should go in some type of primal direction, and that music reproduction is at the highest level when it is art itself.
I'm not going to short change the situation. I think in the whole package there are fundamental differences in the presentation of sound that these opts offer. The sound leads to a certain soundstage realism that seems to have some fundamental differences between it and a regular high-end sound, and even between it and other set amps that I have heard.
I remember going to a show once and in one room this guy trying to place more than two speakers in various locations around the room to try to achieve something. I think we have to push sound in various directions.
Even if you are dealing with what might be a slightly flawed situation with an idht driver, the whole package and even in the flaws, certain listening potentials might be triggered.
The 45 is really something special and probably makes for a better overall amp. But maybe that is only more of a comparative thing, and the 300b cannot be discounted by any means. You can really go further in some directions with the 300b.
Hey John,I love my amps and as far as 45s are concerned I only wish I had one of John Hogan's... But, my local friend has John's 45, PX-25 monoblocks, etc. amps (4 or 5 different ones in total), so I can go borrow one any time. He'll NEVER sell them, unfortunately for me. You have any for sale? If so, I'd never sell or I'd sell back to you only...
Anyway, I like the left brain / right brain comparisons above. I'm a left brainer all the way EXCEPT when it comes to music and my system. John's amps just sound so right to me making it easy to gloss over left-brain perceptions. I knew I was on to something with John's amps when I A/B'd one with an Art Audio Diavolo. The Diavolo was/is truly impressive (should be for the money) but not once did I think I was cheated or short-changed with John's amps. By the way, my friend with all of the Hogan amps, that he won't sell, is selling his Art Audio Jota. Says quite a bit I think. No, John's amps ain't perfect, some would say far from perfect depending on perspective, but there's obviously somethin' about 'em... I get it...
Just curious, but have you heard any of Don Allen's amps? He's building a phonostage for me with some step-ups and I've heard good things about all of his offerings. His amps are supposed to be "quiet" with very little to no 60/120 cycle hum, especially his 45s. I remember John saying he didn't like any amp without ac across the board, as you said above, and some amount of hum...
Always a pleasure reading your posts.
Thanks,
Hi Jim, thanks for your response.I think the heart of John's amps lie in the opts, plus a few other things such as ac and also the chassis. Plus perhaps the fine and final adjustments made on the amps with back and forth listening/changing.
I think the chassis is pretty vital to the cohesion of everything. John would strip these vintage chasses and add holes to them if needed and really worked the chasses. He could put all the hours he wanted into any amp because he was basically just doing it for his own interest and avocation.
The knowledge is freely shared and I think it is possible to get a good builder to build a 45 with a few parts that are still fairly avaiable on e-bay.
I have a total of 7 of John's 45 amps. I'm not in a position to sell them now but you never know what natural or personal disaster that could come along that could change my mind. They are also like some vital books that I've only read the first few pages and that I look forward someday to study more and see what I can figure out. I don't want to hoard them but I don't want to sell them either. I was thinking of someday passing them on to my children, but yoiu never know, it just might not be there interest and the amps could be better off somewhere else. I might be able to lend something out at some point in the future if they are really determined to be that worthwhile.
Also there might be some opts out there now or that will be in the future that could just overwhelm everything else including these ones. But I don't know if that exists or if it will ever exist. Some of the best in audio and even music is in the past and it will never be duplicated or bettered.
I have one 717a/45, a pentode driver, same driver in the Yammota (sp?) and I would just love to compare it to one to see what is really going on and I would expect to find that John's amp is significantly better because of the ingredients mentioned. This driver though, just really seems good, and that probably has alot to do with why the Yammota seems well regarded.
I have three 6sn7/26/45 amps and my feeling has been that these are my favorite but sometimes it is hard to maintain an understanding or sufficient perspective.
I have one 6sn7/27/45 and this just seems to sound the best in a room with multiple vintage speakers, a room in which I play mostly dance type of music.
I have a paralled 6sn7/26/45 (two 45 tubes per channel) and I don't know really where it stands compared to a regular one. It may or may not be as good.
And I have one 45 amp in Pa, probably another idht/45, and I don't even know what it is or have an idea of the sound.
I've heard a Korneff amp which seemed to really work well for the audiophile in the way he was using it, and I heard a pair of Tucker monos with cobalt transformers which sounded pretty fast and impressive. But without some real listening and study especially with the latter, I don't know where this stuff really stands.
How many 2A3/300B amps do you have?
I have alot of 300b amps but I don't know how many, I have a group of them in Pa so I cannot really count them. I also have a 183, and a 50 amp. The 6sn7/26/52's monos got away. I have a couple of 10y amps, and I have a pair of monos, I forgot the output tube.I have enough to keep me busy listening for a while. :)
I was in a position for quite some time of buying them and that enabled John to keep building them. Then other people started buying them and the opportunity was lessening a bit for me.
I use a stereo in a room like art in the room. I put the stereo in first, then the furniture, for whatever use the room is for.
The stereo/music warms the room first. Different rooms/functions lead to perhaps different types of music in the room or favorite music in a given room.This all developed out of the opportunity to get John's amps. I realized the aesthetic/art value of the sound and I went with the flow. So that now every room is related around the stereo/sound. My house has been like that the last few years, and I really enjoy it.
For example, when I go to bed at night, most nights I might play music. For a couple of months I was playing Horace Silver's 'Song for my Father'. That is a great cd. And the last couple of months I've been playing Billie Paul Williams 'Miles to Go'. This cd has taken over alot of the systems. I thought I was tiring of the cd last week playing it in almost every room, but it is still hanging on.
Yah stop hoarding and share the wealth. Even more to throw into the quation, old transformers.Interesting thoughts on left/right brain. It seems the 6sn7 suggestion keeps coming up and maybe I should not dismiss it since if opposite of hi-fi sound is my goal then maybe I should just get one and find out for myself if I like it.
My next goal would be to find one that does not have that "mush sound" as some have written about as well as providing an acceptable amountof detail. On the diy design side there seems to be quite a few including the JELabs, Walton, and the suggested Fi primer to name a few. However if I instead bought a commercial amp and did not like it I guess I could allways sell it should I not like this sound. I am a little bit worried that in the end this may happen as I have never read anyone describe a 6sn7 amp to have the often described 45 SET sound of "being there" and if it doesn't sound like a live performance then this whole exercise might be a waste of time. A characteristic I would too greatly miss from my 845.
I just think that the 6sn7 especially a fi primer one provides the 'bloom' in the sound. Perhaps the high-end moved away from it towards more articulation. I think if you put a middle driver in like a 26 tube, then the sound can really go in a nice direction. The pentode driver offers the advantage of just needing one driver tube and it might have better characteristics for lots of situations than the 6sn7.The 6sn7 seems to suit the 300b pretty well. I forgot that I have an 8th 45 amp which is a pair of 6sn7/45 monos. i'm not sure how I really feel about them. When I first heard them at John's, he had built them for me, (it wasn't what I really asked for but it was what he felt like building, he didn't feel like using two drivers,) I found something really riveting about the sound. There have been times when I played them when I have sat there riveted. But I not sure if they really measure up to some of the other 45 amps. I'm not sure if a 6sn7 and a 45 a really suited enough for each other.
When you are really looking for the best 45 in one system, then you might be looking for the best balanced one or you have an interest in particular characteristics. But if you have a few systems, then you can play with enjoying some of the characeristics of what a particular amb/combo may offer.
A Jeff Korneff 6SN7/45 has that "being there" sound, especially with NOS globe 245 or EML 45 tubes.
nt
Many factors affect the way an amp presents music, but if I were to put my head on the block something like this may suit: cascade 6sn7 RC coupled to a 300B run low (or not) and hot, relatively low load on the 300B, no choke loading of grids, and a ps w/ poor regulation (ie. pi filter w/ high DCR should do it).In the commercial amp world, the Cary and Sun (already mentioned) may suit; some feel AudioNote may also be appropriate. The JE Labs 300B DX (not a commercial amp or kit) would also fit. At one point, these types of amps were the most representative of the breed, and in some ways may have stimulated interest in SETs. Things evolve tho...
A pentode driver in place of the 6sn7 cascade would likely offer something to your liking. For this, check out DIY HiFi Supply - they can supply kit or built, I think. I hear they are a great match with Bastanis Prometheus.
Cheers
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
Well the Cary would probably not suffice. I have looked into the Sun and it seems it is run so low that there is so little drive to it. Then again I don't need woofer duty but it still may be evident driving the full ranger considering I like my moments of loud listening levels. You'd think these kind of amps would be a dime a dozen but maybe there is a shift to more "hi-fi sound" design today.I just may very well just go kit or diy if I don't find a commercial amp.
It would hopefully just be a matter of finding out the make up of what components/design might be needed to create an amp with this design goal. As far as the suggestions so far, Diyhifisupply does not use any of the transformers that are considered great. Otherwise I would not hesitate to buy any of their products. The mention of the S6N7 driver for the 300b seems to get a bad response from many here so I am not sure if I want to take the chance with using that one. The coupling is something I'll have to look into more. The loading of the output tube is interesting but I suppose if too overdone, or should I say underdone, then I wonder if it would take on the Sun Audio lack of drive problems.
There is one more amp that has not been covered, but it does not fall under the "sweet" category. Rather, it would be a "liquid" one.Checkout the Yamamoto A-09 300B SET Amplifier. The high price tag ($3,950) can be somewhat offset if you buy the kit instead of tye assembled unit. The transformers are not Tango or Electraprint, but instead they are C-core wound and supposed to be top notch.
-- josé k.
I have a Yamamoto A-09 300B SET on order. I should have it in a week or two. I will post my first impressions when I get it.
Jose that is a great looking amp. I could never find one person who wrote about owning or to have listened to that amp. Tons of stuff on the A-O8S but never that one. Now that I think of it probably Brian should know more about it. They do post a Chinese review but it is not translated.Have you heard it (you mention a liquid sound)? If so and if by chance you have heard the A-O8S, would you say there is a Yamamoto house sound. I read here Srajan Eben describe the A-O8S as souding "spritzy". So if Yamamoto kept that same light airy liveliness sound and gave it a little more meat with the 300b, this could be a great amp.
No, I have not heard any of the Yamamoto amps but I am ordering an A-08S after the holidays as a belated Christmas present for myself.I personally like the tone of the 45s and have VERY efficient speakers, so I am looking for ward to it. Right now I am living with a Moth Audio 2A3S and a Jeff Korneff SET45.
-- josé k.
I believe that the Sun Audio 300B is one of those amplifiers that have been described as liquid and sweet with incredible tonal quality.-- jose k.
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