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In Reply to: Language is a virus from outer space (long) posted by HiFiOd on November 21, 2006 at 07:35:05:
The whole thing is BS. It gives them something to talk about. Most of the best sounding amplifiers in the world measure badly - and they don't know why - so it's meaningless.Also, such comments as 'Its flavor is one of velocity, rhythmic elan and pungency.' - again, totally meaningless - he could have lifted the comment from a wine magazine where it would make just as much 'sense'.
I stopped reading magazines years ago when I figured out that these reviewers have to find something to say - they will balance the good with the bad - often when it is not balanced, simply because they become self-conditioned into doing so as a consequence of having to produce 'interesting' results that won't upset a potential advertiser etc. Measurements allow them to waffle even further.
I have made the mistake of buying products based solely upon magazine reviews many times in my life and have never been really satisfied in the long term. The only way you can be sure of anything is to listen to something in your own, or at least an equivalent, system or listen to people you feel you can trust.
Follow Ups:
"The whole thing is BS. It gives them something to talk about. Most of the best sounding amplifiers in the world measure badly - and they don't know why - so it's meaningless."reading thru the lines, what you intend to convey here is that the amplifiers YOU like measure badly 8:o
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Perhaps the measurements don't compliment good sound....or measure the wrong things.Of course the conclusions based on measurements could be faulty. Maybe a LITTLE of a specific kind of HD actually makes audio sound more lifelike. That certainly would square with my [and many others'] experience.
Besides that, measurements are pretty incomplete when describing the many aspects of sound found in audio.
Later
D
The goal is not to reproduce with 0% THD, as stereo amps are not patch clamp amps nor oscilloscopes nor satellite control units. Probably we have to accept that the entire sonic event cannot be wholely recorded. We play it back as it was imperfectly recorded, it will be lacking. Add some THD distortion, and it will gain some artificial shine, that will make it sound alive, yet not identical to the original event.indeed, amps measuring super-duper low distortion generally sound lifeless, lacking harmonic content, compared to real life musical instruments.
However, this does not warrant that high THD sounds good. My hunch is that other properties of the amp (like speakers matching) are much more important than THD measured into a resistive load.BTW, the THD figures measured into real speakers might be the exact opposite of those measured into an 8 ohms resistor.......
Long live DIY!
Janos
IMO, the dilemma facing audiophiledom is that measurements at least in so far as they apply to accuracy does not take into account personal preferences, and being human we have preferences, whilst measurements are arguably well defined and unequivocal, our preferences especially when a considerably large group is taken into are not, and this presents audiophiles with a problem, in fact this is probably the main motivation for subjectivism, everybody wants to believe their personal preferences are either the "accurate" or/and "realistic" sound, however the objective measurements simply do not permit such equivocation. What to do? Develop a methodology where the definition of accuracy is very loose, voila subjectivism.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Your postulate seems to drive the conclusion that given sufficient education, the listener will grow to accept and embrace the 'truth' of objectivist audio.Objective measurements are always the servant to the subjective observed experience...never the other way around. The fact that so much so called 'correct' audio equipment has resulted in equipment which presents a thin lifeless facsimile of music and measures well, but fails to connect with listeners would explain and support that.
Later
D
"Your postulate seems to drive the conclusion that given sufficient education, the listener will grow to accept and embrace the 'truth' of objectivist audio."Not at all, all I am saying is that folks like what they like irrespective of the measurements, the only issue which is probably a byproduct of origins of audio reproduction when it was referred to as high fidelity audio, is that folks are desperately looking for various avenues to classify their preferences as correct or realistric or accurate etc, subjectivism facilitates this by providing a loose set of standards that folks can subscribe to.
Objective measurements are always unequivocal however preferences are always all over the map.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
Absolutely true. Too bad the measurists haven't quite figured out WHAT to measure.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Hey-Hey!!!,
Given that the measurement science is not describing the amp well, what should be measured so that an amp I like to listen to measures well? Or for that matter, what would you measure so that the amps that Dave likes to listen to measure well?Can the effects of switching between a United 845 and a Chinese 845 be measured? Assuming the two tubes are performing to spec...Or perhaps the audible difference between 6SN7's can be quantified?
Since the traditional means of measuring amps doesn't yeild any useful information on how they'll sound to me, I draw the single reasonable conclusion that they're the wrong things to measure...:)
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
"Given that the measurement science is not describing the amp well, what should be measured so that an amp I like to listen to measures well? Or for that matter, what would you measure so that the amps that Dave likes to listen to measure well? "Well, you have touched on the heart of the matter, why is it necessary for Dave, yours or anyone's preference to measure well? Measurements have their place, your preferences ( or likes) have their place, to suggest that measurements are capturing the wrong because one's preference exhibits some objective shortcomings with respect to the ideal is missing the point. From this discuss, the underlying point is that measurements are saying something fairly consistents but folks do not like what they saying, i.e. folks feel uncomfortable with the suggestion that their preferences reveal some departure from the ideal.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
And in many ways you guys are saying the same thing. I think that most people who enjoy SET don't agonize too much over the test and measurement. There are good things about testing and measuring, and there are also measurements that don't really tell us much about why something sounds good (or bad). But you have already pointed this out.
I wanted to comment on your statement of "Music making the painting, recording it the photograph". I believe wholeheartedly that the recording process has more in common with painting than it does with photography. "Recording" is really an extension of the musical event that is being painted unto it. It is not a snapshot of an event. Artists use the recording medium as a canvas to paint their musical expression. This is true whether its in real time and space, or in a multitrack studio.I think that this is relavent to the whole test and measurement discussion. How do you measure art?
measure Art that is. All that you're really able to get is a personal opinion.Engineers are the best artists. There are very few deserving the term 'Great'....just like any other arena. Look at their works, The SR71 Blackbird, the DeHaviland Mosquito, the GT40....
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
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