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Hi,I would like to ask you SET experts some advice before taking the plunge.
I'm new to this and have only heard SET's at Hi-Fi shows... At the moment I own a chinese 2x100W Solid state amplifier, It's very good but does not sound as good as my dads audion push-pull 300B monoblocks.
My speakers are Blaudio bookshelfs of 90db/8ohms, fairly easy load I think, my room is 3x3 meters. Music taste is all over the place ( jazz, rock, pop, punk, big-band, hip hop..... )
What kind of SET amp should I look for? Those el34 amps look good , or should I save up a little more money and go for 300B SET?
Follow Ups:
Hi, I'm sorry to ressurect this thread again...I looked up some info on my my speakers , they only go down to 70hz, and the manual says the LF driver has no network?
The speakers are chinese, the vendor I got them from , told me they can be driven with a 300B amp. Today I played the speakers on my dads audion silver knight 300B (25wpc PP) and they really rocked!!! My current SS amp is a terrible match with these speakers, I do believe they are more suitable for tube amps. There was even more and tighter bass! ( my ss has 2x100watts and a 400watt Torid trafo)
This is the new version of the ASL AQ1006/845.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
How do they compare with your ASL Hurricanes?Rgds,
Naz
...as SoniCap Platinum and Cardas GR coupling caps, a few better resistors, and MUCH-better powersupply caps throughout**. Also, I hardwired the input cables thereby eliminating several mechanical and solder joints and used AudioNote silver binding posts. The only thing I've done to the 1006s is to replace all the small tubes with better-sounding ones.Briefly*, the 'Canes are still a little more detailed, but the 1006s are more musically attractive and coherent (?). This is difficult for me to reduce to words. I learned to LOVE the sounds of SETs with my ASL Explorer 805s a couple years ago, and these 1006s sound as much more like music as the 805s did compared with a similar-power 2-pairs-of-KT88s triode amp.
I didn't drive my current home-made line-array speakers very long with the 'Canes, but the current setup sounds more transparent than ANYTHING I've heard. The SYSTEM has a see-into-the-orchestra quality that gives me goosebumps when it and I are 'on' (and I don't mean drugs...:-). The new amps definitely contribute to that and will get better and better as I gradually replace the medium-quality parts inside.
I'm thrilled with my system...the new amps AND my home-made speakers.
]
* Again, I'm no GEA who can hear all sorts of very subtle differences. I'm much more a macro-level guy who listens and judges over a longer term.
** IMO the MOST-important upgrade in the amp. My improvements to the 1006s will start with replacing ALL the many PS caps in the amps and NOT with the coupling caps, where I've always started before.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
and mirrors my own experience when I first moved to 845 SET (albeit with completely different amps) but you'll easily pick up that (slightly) missing detail with the mods you are planning and then you'll have the best of both worlds! At least that's the way it panned out for me. BTW, I agree with your statement re caps ... PS first every time in my book. You've also done a great job of your line arrays ... another very positive step.Cheers,
Naz
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
A 805 or 845 is the only easily available SET that can drive less efficient speakers. That's what I go for if I was to keep the speakers.I am currently running an 87dB speaker (Mobile Fidelity OML-1) with a 10W push-pull pentode 6V6 (Cayin M-6) for my "System B". Ok, the bass is not very controlled and loud orchestral passages are compressed, but in all it is a positive result in my 20 sq.m living room. But I believe that push-pull EL34 or KT88 is best suited for speakers of this efficiency.
I am now considering taking the plunge with a pair of Spicom Type 4 (http://www.spicom.gr) and a Dared 2A3C amp (http://www.dared.com).
Hi Robert.
I do advise you to go the single end way and pair the amplifier with a speaker that has no crossover. Preferably a PHY-HP model or a cheaper SABA greencone from eBay. Put the speaker element on a 90cm x 80cm baffle and enjoy musik in a way other solutions never will be able to touch.
If you buy the Almarro A318B (as I did) you will also be able to use boxed speakers of a wide variety. Both having the cake and eating it.
The Almarro is that good. And NOT expensive. Probably will it keep its value (or go up) since build by a small cottage industry in Japan. Build quality is way beyond any homebuilt SET-lookalike or chinese ditto. Perfect.
great timing. I'm selling my Audion SE integrated on Audiogon. Read the classified. It is a newbies dream. It did it for me.
rober, hi. Don't worry about your English. It is very good. Yes, I would take the plunge. Explore the availability of kits where you are. Building something is always a good entre to audio. Scratch building something from the start unless you have a good mentor for advise/help may be daunting. One series of kits that has caught my eye are those at DIY HIFI Supply. They have a SET kit w 300B that looks very interesting. If you do a 300B SET don't overlook JJ Electronics 300B and 2A3. I have had super results with JJ 300B. The price is good and the performance excellent. I think you want validation to take the plunge. Do it and don't look back.
Rober,
I think you are heading in the right direction. It is very hard
to turn away from the sonic qualities of triode amplifiers once
once one hears them with proper loudspeakers. Honestly, even
2-4 watts can be very satisfying with 90db sensitive loudspeakers
in a room such as you describe. Only make sure they do not dip much
below about 5 ohms impedance anywhere in the spectrum, and do not
contain high-order crossover networks which introduce radical
reactive loads to the amp. The simpler, the better.I know there are some pretty nice sounding EL34 SET amps available,
but I would advise considering a more refined, lower distortion
valve. On the other hand, 300B amps tend to be pricey just because
they are 300B amps. Frankly, there is a growing opinion in SET
circles that the more affordable 2A3 is actually a more sonically
refined valve. The 2A3 is much more affordable when it comes time
to replace the valves, or simply to try various makes and manuf-
acturers.Remember, the quality of the output transfromers used is of paramount
importance. I suggest going with a unit that is known to use quality
output transformers -which tend to be physically large (heavy) for
their rated power.If you compare carefully before you buy, I do not think you will be
disappointed with the decision to go SET.Good Luck!
I used the A318B with Jean Marie Reynaud Twins mkII monitors that are 90dB/4 0hm and the results we simply fantastic. The A318B had plenty of power to drive them without the slightest problem in a 5m x 7m room.In fact, it sounded far better with my 90dB monitors than with my 97dB horns. The horns were too efficient to allow the amp to get into it's working range since I could only turn up the volume 5-10%. With the 90dB monitors, I could turn it up 50-75% and the sound really got much more rich and weighted, with lots of power and impact. It seemed to me that the Almarro needed to push some current to sound it best and speakers in the 90dB range allow it to do so.
The Almarro uses the Russian 6C33C-B tube. It is beautifully made to extremely high standards both inside and outside. Here's a great review from Positive Feedback magazine that perfectly sums up it's sound and performance. Another from Enjoy The Music.com
Looks like they have a a dealer in Sweden.
amp alone doesn't really do the trickthose bookshelf units may work but get a game plan for high efficiency speakers.
Get a pair of any well-known 2A3 SET amps.
You are highly likely to like that better than your dads setup.
Take care with your choices and it will probably be noticeably cheaper than your dad's setup.
The single characteristic that about 99.9% of SETs have is relatively low power; that's because they use ONE output tube per channel (by definition). The 805 tube is used frequently for about 50 Watts in class-A, while the 845 will reach about 25 Watts. All other triodes* used commonly in audio have lower output**. And forget about EL34s; one will have just a very-few Watts of output. Besides that, it's a pentode/tetrode and won't sound as good wired as a triode as a real triode tube.IMO, if you're willing to get into the 845- and 805-powered amps, you may be quite happy with SETs. I owned 85dB-sensitive Quad 989s when I read Art Dudley's review in 'Stereophile' of the Antique Sound Lab Explorer 805 SET monoamps; see the link. Since Art said they sounded just fine driving his 989s, I bought a pair of ASL 805s. For my listening to large-scale Classical music in a largish (c. 3200CF) room, I felt this combination was made in heaven. (Subsequently I tired of the 989's treble balance, changed to a less-sensitive speaker, and bought ASL Hurricanes [with about 120 Watts per chassis in triode].)
Lately I've built more-sensitive (SIXTEEN dB more sensitive) open-baffle, line-array speakers...
...so that I can get back to the goodness of SET sound, and I just received new ASL AQ1006/845 SET monoamps.
I believe that 20 - 50 Watts of SET power will be adequate for you, as long as you realize that tubed amps generally and low- or no-feedback SETs in particular have relatively low damping factors so the bass will be not as tight as you've had.
* I'm NOT talking about the very large industrial tubes such as 304s.
**The commonly used triodes and their typical power outputs are:
45, about 1 Watt; 2A3, 3 Watts; 300B, 8; 845, 15 - 25; and 805, c. 50. The PX-25 shows up occasionally; it has about 10 Watts I THINK.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
My dealer tells me I received the 1st pair shipped to the US.
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Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
Hi,
I have used 90 db. speakers with a 300B amp, in my 12' by 24' by 8' high listening room, but not full range. With a pair of biamped subwoofers handling all frequencies below 100 hz, and a 4th order roll off crossover, it sounded amazing. Most of the music I enjoy was reproduced with full power and authority. Some, the system just couldn't handle, even at moderatly high volume. Ex: Zepplin, Who, and similar power rock. Distortion became too much at the higher volume levels I sometimes crave. Detail and soundstage was the best I have ever experienced, and I miss it, but I need to rock hard sometimes, and it just couldn't do it.
102 db. Horns with a 45 or 2a3 amp did though.
mg16
I don't believe your speakers will handle a 300b SET amp very well. You'd be better off with 98db or even better 100 to 102db. Especially if you play your music at medium to high volume levels. 300b is about 8 wpc.
This is my opinion. Some might say your speakers will work, but you won't be getting the best out of the amp or the speakers.
OK, I get a bit confused, some people say 8 watts is more than enough for 90db, some people say you need 95db + ...It's in a very small room, so listening volume won't be that loud and it does not need to got loud if it's very open sounding.
What kind of tube amp do you recommend for 90db / 8 ohms? No SET at all ?
I have some BLH with a 166 driver with a 3 watt amp and I have real Bass. I am a old time studio rocker that listens to music loud. I am quite satisfied with my set up. Its the SET sound you are looking for not the Bass thumping over 102db box speaker.
Well..."manufacturers" wanting to sell will "recommend" 90db or greater.Real audiophiles "know" 8 watts and 90db speakers will NOT work optimally.
Of EXTREME importance in SET systems is not only speaker sensitivity, but the type of LOAD it presents to the [SET] amp, and whether the impedence is a friendly match. Single driver speakers, and horn speakers, for example, even those rated at 90db may work well with SET amps. However, multi-driver speakers with complex cross-overs will KILL an SET amp and make it PUKE, even if it is rated at 95db.
"rule of audio thumb"
1)Horns/single drivers + SET amps (any kind)
2)Multi-driver speakers w/cross-over + solid state or push/pull tube.
THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, YES, BUT YOU CAN'T GO WRONG FOLLOWING THIS RULE.
go with SET, and add a self-powered (at least 300 watt) sub to take care of your bass. 8 wpc just cannot give you enough bass.
No matter how good your speakers are (90 or 100 dB), the eff of woofer of those speakers are likely under 75 dB below 60 Hz.
OK, I've never owned a subwoofer... How woud I connect this?SET- speaker cable- Subwoofer- speakercable- Speakers ?
Hi,
A powered sub would have to have high pass output jacks to feed the SET amp. Otherwise you would still be driving the SET amp full range, and the subwoofer would be augmenting the bass below the crossover setting on your sub. It would still be straining your SET amp to reproduce low frequencys.
If you don't go full bi-amp, try to find a sub with high pass outputs to drive your SET amp and upper range speakers. Failing that, make sure your subwoofer has a bypassing function built into the amp/crossover,(HSU VT2 does as does others), and purchase a seperate 24 db/oct. crossover unit, to divide the high and low frequencys out of your preamp.
mg16
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