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Good Day,I'm a student, with a young family and money is tight. I have been trying to listen to various rigs to get a handle on what is offered (at least in my area) and much of what I have heard is well beyond my price range. That said, I have always been intrigued with the Cary 300SEI. They come up often on the used market, and they can be used as a headphone amp (which interests me a great deal). I am wondering on the build quality and the bass prowess. I have narrowed down my search to Reference 3a De Capo's or the floor standing versions or ideally a pair of Coincident Victories. I like the idea behind SETs and I've heard Wyetechs (the entire range), some Art Audios and a handful of cheaper SETs and they always portray a realism I've not heard elsewhere. In headphoneland where I exist mostly, I run a SET almost exclusively (one of the very few SETs available - the EAR HP4).
I wonder if the Cary would have enough snap to it when paired with something like the De Capos or Concident Victories.
I am mainly interested in the midrange, but I like a very smooth enjoyable top end. I'll take a bit recessed or rolled off if it curbs any shrillness or hotness. In the bass department I want slam, layered textured notes seemlessly presented to me, but I'm not so silly in thinking that my budget ($5kish) could get me anything and everything. So I could handle a bit of fuzzy bass, provided that the midrange sparkled and sounded true and the highs were never fatiguing.
Any advice? Or should I look at a P-P amp instead because the prices are more in my range and the number of speakers would open up for me. I'm in the Ottawa Ontario area, so pickings are rather slim.
Follow Ups:
I have tight bass in both my Welborne 300b DRD ss ultimate version and my 45 DRD tube rectified version. No sloppy bass in either amplifiers. Both amps are musical. The first thing you need to do is obtain your speakers that are efficient enough to work well with SET amps. Since you are going to FL you might want to search a few estate sales while you are there for some vintage speakers. If I had $5K to spend a pair of used Klipsch Cornwall or Klipschorns, and a pair of Welborne 45 or 300b mono block amps would work well. Buying used gear like that would leave you with some money from your budget also. There are lots of speakers that work well with SET amps. A partial list can be found on the Welborne site for example. What about driving over the border if you can and bringing them back yourself? You folks in the Great White North have to pay VAT or other high import taxes. Just take your time and do lots of reading before you buy. If you do not find a pair of speakers that are efficient enough SET might leave a bad taste in your mouth, if they do not voice well with lower powered amplifiers. Good luck! John
you said "in the bass department, I want slam"I've heard some really good, exotic SET setups.
Can't remember "slam" as being a part of that -
To some extent, that will be somewhat a function of the drivers/speakers. OTOH, since the lower you go, the more juice you need - you might want to look at biamping if the "slam" factor is high in your priorities.
I am an SET person. But if I had a friend ask me what to buy, and that was high on his list - I probably would have him lean towards push-pull.
Not sure you can get everything you want in one package.
Which is another reason for bi-amping _grin_
Find a SET owner near you and listen. I'm in Columbus Oh, and happy to have anyone come listen to SET amps. If you go to the Bottlehead forum you'll find a map of people close to you who have Bottlehead (=SET) amps.
As mentioned below you could go diy kits, with soldering practice it would be a nice learning thing too. You could also get in contact with custom amp designer/builders to build you one off stuff you can't find/hear with off the shelf commercial gear.
Actually you're in a very good area. AudioNote Kits is based in Ottawa.Send Brian Smith an e-mail - he runs AudioNote Kits. I built their PQ Kit1 300B Signature about two years ago - serious kit! I then went on to build their phono stage and DAC Kit 2.1 and I'm now awaiting their kit03 speakers.
Wow too sweet! I had no idea they were located in Ottawa. I'll have to send Brian an email then and maybe I can hear some of the stuff before ordering.
Thanks for the link!
...consider Decware for both single-ended electronics and speakers. Their MG944 speakers should especially fit your needs. Also, Wright Sound for SET amps (I own some.)
These are very reliable products, so do not hesitate about buying them used if that keeps them within your budget.
Hello Zanth,I know like everything else there are probably good & bad SETs out there. I personally have never heard a bad SET myself as of yet. What I can tell you is this. I've been a music lover/audiophile since I was 15 and here it is 37 years later and I own an SET.
I've owned very good solidstate Harmon-Kardon, OCM, Audio Analoge, Mark Levinson etc. I then switched to ultralinear tubes Dynaco & Aronov. However the day I purchased my Mastersound Reference 845, I jumped of the amplifier upgrade train.
I know your $$$$ is a little tight, but if you buy an SET you like now, it will save you many years of losing $$$$ as you jump from one upgrade to another! I 100% recommend you buy an SET you like the sound of and can afford, even if affording it means stretching your budget some.
I only wished someone had allowed me to hear an SET many years ago. Boy would I have saved a lot of $$$$$ in between then and now!
That's my 2 cents...
True for me, too. Buy one and mate for life, and carry on buying records, carefree as a kid.
Good luck,
P
Thanks for the tips guys. This is exactly how I want to do it. I've heard what SETs can do. The Wyetechs in particular were incredible, but even the cheapest set of monos runs my entire budget for pre/amp and speakers. Art Audio is not far off from these prices either. What I hear with SET I have not heard anywhere else ever. Because of this I want to attempt to grab hold of this sound but if I can't manage well enough on this budget I had thought...maybe go P-P and worry about SET later in life. If what others are saying is true, that kits can get me close enough, and much cheaper than $5k with speakers, then this looks good to me!In buying something now for the long haul, I want reliability. Both Reference 3A and Coicident recommend amps (well Divertech does for the 3A's) but they are all Antique Sound labs or rebadged AS amps and I've read far too many posts maligning the build etc. I'm not interested in dancing around repair shops in 1 year, 2 years, 5 years because of shoddy build. With DIY, I'm leary that I don't have enough experience (which is clearly the case) to properly build or maintain an amp. Not to mention my time is very limited. Going with Cary, Ear, Art Audio or Wyetech, with the reps they have built up, their gear should last me a decade without anything major going wrong.
Because I live in Canada, I want to try and stick with speakers I can easily listen to and/or ship. Both Reference 3a and Coincident are located here and I've heard them which makes life easier on this front.
I've had a few offers to come and listen to SETs by members who have read my thread and I'm hoping to contact them and take them up on their offer, this will definitely help me out. I'm into buying once and being happy for ages. I hate the upgrade cycle and I much prefer buying music. Doing so particularly with that child-like carefree mentality.
My DIY skills are nill, and I don't have the time, either. I envy the guys that have both. You've got the right idea in terms of going with those brand names, imho.
The Cary is a wonderful piece (300SEI), but I spent time listening to it and didn't buy it because of the bass issues. I love the Cary sound and think the stuff is well built (I have their pre amp and won't ever change, what a nice phono section), but many have heard the bass "problem" with the integrated, and I must admit I did, as well.
Not sure if you mentioned wether you were considering buying used, but if you are, you might consider, say, one of the Art Audio pieces. They are fairly easy to find, and from what I have seen on Audiogon you can pick up a Carissa or Jota or if you are REALLY lucky, a Symphony 2 and still have a couple of grand left over for speakers. Whatever you get, do consider buying used, and again, best of luck, you won't have any regrets-
P
DIY will get you where you want. I don't like pushing brands and I'm sure they are other options but most people who have built Bottlehead gear are very satisfied.I would build the Paramount amps ($1,300) in either the 300B or 2A3 version. This is their top of the line amp. They´re about to release a Magnequest iron upgrade(let's assume $700). Build their Foreplay preamp ($700 with all the upgrades). Build a pair of horns, Madisound has now the special edition Fostex Fe206-esr, fantastic drivers for the money, although a little bit on the labor intensive side to build the recommended cabinets ($500 for the drivers + $250 for wood). Finally a powered subwoofer for your slam, the top of the line one from parts express is about $700 in kit form. $300 for tools, soldering iron, multimeter, etc. This totals $3,750.
You could add a pair of Fostex supertweeters. There´s a special edition one also on Madisound that is supposed to be very good and match very well with the fe206esrs. They are somewhere around $350 each.
I doubt you can do much better with that amount of money or even with twice that.
xavier
If you can afford a Paramount kit get one, but if you're trying to stretch $$, another option is to go with the Paramour kit, and then upgrade the iron later w/ the upgrade Doc mentioned when you're ready to spend again. Also, for incredible value and v. good synergy in speakers, build a pair of Pi Two Towers. very easy kit to build and about $100 per. You'll get real bass, and it's a very simple box that's easily built. You can also use either of these w/out a preamp to start out with if your cdp has a volume control and get one of those later, too, if you want.
Thanks for the kind words Xavier. I just want to clarify that upcoming the iron upgrade you mention is for another amp kit, the Paramour II. An MQ iron upgrade for the Paramount is in the works as well, and should be coming out around the end of the year.
A few things come to mind.
1. You already have a very nice headphone amp. Keep it. You don't need a power amplifier with a headphone jack and it probably won't sound as good on your headphones as your headphone amp that you already own. Also, why would you want to fire up all of that power to listen to headphones? Get a power amp just for speakers and don't sweat the headphone application.
2. You are nervous about SET. Have you spent a reasonable amount of time with a dealer or a friend listening to SET? If you have then I don't think that you would be nervous about it. It's not like an aquired taste or a difficult thing to put together. It's just simpler and better than massive push-pull amplifiers and complicated, inefficient speakers. Once I heard the clarity and the beauty of SET I had to have it in my home. I don't recall being nervous about it. Excited yeah, but not nervous. Maybe you're nervous about spending the money right now and that's OK. Just wait a while. Family obligations come first.
3. I think that there are a lot of SET amps in your price range. Another one that comes to mind is the Audion Silver Night Mark2. This is a nice SET indeed, compact, and family friendly. The kids will love turning up that big volume control! Teach 'em while they're young.
I think your advice about keeping the headphone rig is a good one. I was thinking that I may have to sell my Ear to afford the SET amp though, which would mean breaking up the best of my headphone systems. But it is true...firing up 300B amps is not exactly cheap when I only need a 1/2 W MAX ever for my phones.I perhaps should have clarified my nervousness. I'm worried I can't touch the great sound I heard from the SET systems I have had exposure to, with only 5k. However, if I could approximate this sound more aptly with P-P then I would go that route, and go SET later in life. I will say that so far, the 300B seems to work for me the best. I've heard the 845, 805, 211 and for now, I am not interested in speakers that can do 2a3's or 45's (or better put, my wife is not ;)
As for family, I'd never put them at risk financially. As spwal indicated, I have this rotating budget that I can access. I make a purchase a year or so and I'm not opposed to liquidating portions of my system as I journey. I'm reaching a point now that speakers are feasible, whereas they were not before hence all my headphone systems. Yet, having heard Wyetechs and Art Audios...heh, no way I can swing those costs but the sound! Oh the sweet sound! I'll have a look at the Audio Silver Night Mark 2 and read up on it. I don't need hammering bass, I listen very softly, but what I do want is tight layered bass (doesn't have to reach to 20Hz, nor 40 really, but I want good bass from what I can achieve.)
. . . then I would also consider single ended pentode designs. There are some nice ones to choose from for under a couple thousand. I also think they have more in common with SET than a push pull triode amp, but many disagree with me. Check the used market too, you never know.If you are smitten with a handful of SETs that you have spent some time with then you will ultimately spend less money if you just save up and wait for what you really want. Buying and selling gear is usually a losing proposition and you won't be happy with settling for less in the long run. If you have the time and patience, then the kit advice you got here is worth considering too. (I can't imagine that you have any spare time though if you're working, going to school, and raising a family.)
I think I would just wait for when the time is right. Good luck!
Hold up people. Zanth had/has an AmAZING headphone setup and knows what he is talking about. That's a rotational budget he's on. I have a 5-7k budget too, but that is only because i get liquid assets that can move. Im almost too stingy to buy a pack of AA batteries, but will spend 2k on an amp in a heartbeat.
Zanth,wtf are you nervous about man. you can try any of my gear. let me know when you get south of the border. Why is the money still tight? You should be making millions by now lol.
I'm still in school :D It never ends! I'm heading to Florida in January, and Washington DC in March. Maybe we could hook up?
I looked at your profile. That equipment, student? That's luxury living my man!Given your financial situation, I think it's high time to get some
independence and do DIY like the rest of us. Enclosed is a picture
of my second SET. This was 4 years ago, when I was in school. :) I
built an 845 on a breadboard. I can show you pics of what I had 3 years later - it moved up quite abit from the breadboard. :)I think you'd be rewarded with a $600 budget for parts and some time sucking soldering fumes... Might gain you some appreciation about the limitations of "whats in your area"
It has taken me quite a while to get what I have. I save and buy one item a year or two. If I go speakers, something will have to leave my system and that is likely the EAR HP4 which retails for about 4.5k USD and could likely be sold for nearly half that, paying for the amp or all of the amp and some of the speakers.I'm leary about going DIY mainly because I have very little experience soldering and wouldn't want to mess things up after spending money on a kit. However, if there are simple walk throughs then that could be an option. I'm after sound, not throwing money away and perhaps I should have prefaced my "student, family man" bit with: "after hearing what some of the best SETs can do, I want that but on a budget ;) Basically, I can't afford AA or Wyetech gear, nor the wonderful speakers they were paired with, but I can afford some middle ground stuff and don't mind dropping the cash so long as I can approximate the good tunes I heard.
Maybe we could exchange emails and you could tell me more about what you have accomplished over the years?
With no experience I learned to solder off the internet and then ordered Welborne 300drd.
I got everything right on one and the other I put a diode in backwards. It took me an evening to figure out but then everything was OK. They just won "Enjoy the Music's Product of the Year". Over a year later I still love the sound. SET amplifiers are not missle guidance systems, You can do it. My next step is to actually buy some books and learn about this stuff. I love advertising it makes you feel better about your decisions but the same knowledge and quality is out there in kit form for a lot less. You won't get some critic patting you on the back telling you what a great shopper you are, but you will get to tell your friends who are awed by the sound "I built it".
Hey-Hey!!!,
WIth your bidget you can buy a lot of parts. Since a lot of the price of 'Off the Rack' units goes to pay for the engineering time spent to turn them into something one can make more than a single pair of...put that money somewhere it will do some good.Besides, a lot of the production prep involves stuff you wouldn't have to do to a personal amp( and your personal amp will be better because of it). Besides, you'll be able to make decisions on what is best for you, not what somebody thinks might be best for most.
The engineering assist is quite available, I found it( and now share it ), as does Jim and a whole host of others. It is fun to find, and even more fun to apply.
cheers,
Douglas
Friend, I would not hurt thee for the world...but thou art standing where I am about to shoot.
See my post above and email me privately or ask any questions in the forum. DIYing is not hard and going with kits makes it much easier. You only need more time and patience but is also much more rewarding.
What size room will you be using the equipment?
Both 3A and Coincident have amps or recommend amps that are 300B based to use with their speakers. Personally I have heard the De capo's with 300B amps and they work very well. The Cary does have a bit of a loose bottom end, and a rolled off top, so the slightly more forward De Capo may be a good choice.
In Ottawa there is Distinctive, Audioshop, and a few others. I know most places have gone Home Theater but a couple of good ones still exist.
You must listen to the combo before deciding. That's a fair bit of money by anyone's standards.
Well, I never found that with the Cary SEI in the two weeks had one in-house. It has luscious midrange(slightly too much so for my taste) and slightly soft, but good, high frequencies. Bass was decent, but too diffuse and loose fr my tastes.The SEI is a seductive peice of equipment at first blush - so rich, so ripe, so velvetey. I can understand why people love Cary. But, I was after more neutrality and focus. Less editorializing and more resolution. Different strokes for different folks.
Is your $5k price for the amp only, or for speakers and integrated amp?
Obviously your definition of money being tight is way different than mine if you have 5k to spend on toys.
Maybe I'm willing to sell some of my current gear to fund my new purchases or maybe a family member died and left me some cash to play with or maybe just maybe I worked hard enough to earn that amount. Regardless, to some $5k is barely enough for a dinner. To me its worth a speaker rig that will last me a long time. To others it is an incredibly stupid amount of money to spend on audio. To each his own.
Ahem, I was going to post something simillar butif you have that kind of budget don't pass on Audio Note (maybe you're handy enough to build a kit from AN AA site or buy assembled )It will fit your budget and in my opinion it is much better option than Carry, da cappo or total victory ( yuck a name ,probably "only for americans" ;0)
I know what you mean. Others should be named "shock and aw" etc..I didn't know Coincident is located in Canada though.
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