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In Reply to: Check the archives,Welborne's the winner. posted by 2bkurius on October 13, 2006 at 16:45:58:
Hmm.. I've not built the Welborn DRD, but I have built a couple different DRDs based on schematics from Jack's site (including using his iron). Frankly, I prefer a more conventional topology, especially a 2 stage with a nice 417a or similar in the front, direct coupled (even cap coupled) to the 2A3 or 300B, and I have one with a 45 sitting in front of me right now. I thought the DRD design just didn't deliver the goods for me. YMMV. I know many seem to like them, so might just be my ears.
Follow Ups:
I have a stock Paramour 2a3, a Decware se84b, and Welborne DRD 300. The Welbornes are definitely the best of the bunch. They lose nothing in tonal density to the other two.How they compare (in this regard) to other 300b's, I cannot say...
Best,
Lenny
Hi SteveProbably not just *your* ears. I have been reading widely in an effort to decide on what topology to use. I have read Ron W paraphrased as saying the DRDs lack a little emotion and may be better with an active pre to add some soul. Thorsten, who seems to like his music presented clean but not ragged and who and is an advocate of the DRD topology, wrote recently that DRD is a little "thin" sounding.
Most of the positive comments on DRD relate to its uneditorialised presentation of music. Other people with different musical tastes, sound preferences, and systems may have different opinions...
Personally (thinking in somewhat arbitrary %ages), I feel a maxed-out DRD-style amp can get you about 80% of the very best possible at very reasonable cost. OTOH, if tonal density and palpability are what gets one going, there are better options perhaps... This is just my personal thinking at present, YMMV.
BTW, I have followed your designs and comments over the last couple of years; did you ever try a 417A w/ CCS, cap coupled to a 2A3 or 300B with a big grid choke on the output? Your thoughts?
Cheers
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
Raymond, Yes, I am currently using a 417a cap coupled to a 300b in one amp, and direct coupled to a 45 in another amp. In both cases I've tried both a CCS and a resistor. For some reason, I prefer the resistor (Mills 12w WW). Use a carbon grid-stop on the 417a. I run it at 10ma, and 150v on the plate. I love this combination. It is simple, clean, and can drive either tube very happily.
I am also looking forward to reading a little more about your thoughts on your DC parafeed 45 as well... I wonder how it would present music with a choke on the driver plate, rather than a CCS?Thanx again
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
nt
Hmm. Not the best news for me, if this is true. I have a pair of DRDs on order (as kit) and was planning on running them with a TVC in my 2nd system with Zu Druids. I really like SETs with a TVC front-end.I can't say I would have thought there was such a things as SETs that lacked tonal density or soul. I would like to hear from others (owners of the amps) about that question.
The base-model 300b DRD with solid state rectification is a terrific amp! It errs more to the side of warmth and a bit of congestion than the more optioned-out models, but it's not without it's own charm. What's more, it sounds surprisingly good right from the start, and begins "opening up" quickly.My optioned-out Star Chief 45s have a somewhat different presentation: It can be sweet and smooth, but it can also give you a bit of fresh lime taste when called for!
I wouldn't be concerned.So much depends on system synergy and one's preferences that there really is no way to know except to give it a try.
If there was "one best amp" we would all be listening to it.
The combination is fantastic with plenty of "flesh and blood".In my opinion, what the DRD's really did is demonstrate to me how thick, bloated, and exaggerated the tonality of many 300B amps really are.
Freed of that baggage, the presentation is pure and transparent with great tone. Not thin, just everything is in balance. And there is still plenty of midrange magic.
DRD+TVC+fullrange single driver = bliss
I built the Welborne DRD 45 and a good friend has the 300B. Mine was tube rectified, his is solid state.The 45 had little of the bass punch I heard with the Yamamoto and even less headroom for dynamics. That, with OS RCA and NU tubes. Yes, I know, 2 watts but everything in proportion.
The 300B with EH power tubes is better in every way: more dynamic, nice mids and a clear top end. More musical. Still, not a favorite. I have disliked the Sovtek 6N1p in other amps and maybe that's what holds these back. Too detailed and dry for my taste, but perhaps not for others.
'The beatings will continue until morale improves'
I have both the Welborne 45 tube rectifed DRD and the 300b DRD SS rectified amps. On my 6 foot tall horn speakers twin JBL 15" woofer bass bins I had no lack of bass using a single pair of 45 mono blocks driving my 2-way horn set up with a passive crossover. Of course my bass bins are 100dB efficient at 1 Watt and my horns are around 112dB efficient @ 1W. Still no lack of bass using just the single pair of 45 DRD amps. I prefer the 45 tube sound for the horns because to my ears the 45 makes the voices much more natural and more realistic sounding to my ears. The 300b DRD are also very musical and very good sounding. I would not describe their sound as sterile to my ears. Again the bass was tight and not lacking on either pair of amplifiers with my speakers. I used both individually for many months as single system amplifirs. I used the 45 and 300b with passive crossovers before going to a active speaker crossover to biamplify my system. The one thing I will mention is it took a LONG time for my new 45 DRD amps to fully open up. They sounded good to begin with and got better over the first 50 hours. But after some months they just opened up and bloomed. I had to get up from the next room to see if something was wrong with my stereo.. Give them time to settle in before you start serious tweaking like capacitor changes or real critical listening. Have fun with your Welborne DRD amps. You will find the quality of the parts used, and the fit and finish was very good on the Welborn amplifiers. They Welborne amplifiers look much nicer when viewed in person than the images on his web site. I have used a 100 wpc CJ tube amplifier and my pair of Klimo push pull EL34 amps. The Klimo were the first pair of ss rectified amps I owned. The CJ is gone now but the Klimo mono block amplifiers are still are used on occasion in my systems. I still use both the Welborne 45 and 300b mono block amps the most together with my vacuum tube active speaker crossover to drive my stereo. Enjoy your new Welborne amps! John
When I asked Ron W about the sovtek 6N1P, he answered that he thought the 6N1P was the best tube in his design.
He did not mention "sovtek", just 6N1P. There are not many factories doing 6N1P, so sovtek may be almost the only (or the easiest) choice.That said, I donīt have any other 6N1P, have tried just Siemens E288CC, more meat on the bones than the sovteks, though this tubeīs midrange is not the most liquid (my 300Bs are TJ mesh plate ceramic base).
Maybe a pair of good 7308-6DJ8-6922-E88CC-E(1or2)88CC, Amperex or even Mullard, will do the trick with that said DRD300Bs thinness.
Ron W says that you can install any 7308-6922 tube, but I donīt know how it would affect the whole sonics, those have not exactly the same specs than 6N1P.
_____________________________________I am from Galicia, so if you find me in a staircase, you wonīt know whether I go up or down ...
Maybe a pair of good 7308-6DJ8-6922-E88CC-E(1or2)88CC, Amperex or even Mullard, will do the trick with that said DRD300Bs thinness.> >The best valve to use is the ECC40. You need to replace the 9 pin base with a rimlock one. Both available on ebay in europe. Much better than any 6922 or 6N1P. This valve is a real sleeper these days, but was the valve of choice in a lot of German gear and studio equipment of the time.
Just did a quick web search and came across a couple of raving reviews for this tube.On Bjørn Kolbrek's Tube Distortion page , he states:
This is a collection of measurements made on most of the tube types I have. I wanted to find the most linear tubes to use in the ampifiers I make. This is THD measurements, but I have viewed the output from the distortion analyzer on a scope, and usually the second harmonic dominate. Measurements are made over a wide range of levels, from 1Vrms (or 0,5Vrms) to 100Vrms across the anode resistor. At the lowest levels, measurements are strongly influenced by noise, so don't take those figures to serious. Everything above 5V should be reliable...The best tubes seems to be E80CC, E88CC and ECC40. They all have mu in order of 20-40, so it seems that low mu triodes are more linear than high mu ones. But there are exeptions, like ECC82.
And from The Rimlock Project
ECC40 magnificent doubletriodeThe idea of using rimlock tubes was born quite a while ago .
I modified several old Philips EL34 push pull amplifiers in the past and most of these amps used the ECC40 doubletriode serving as inputstage / phase inverter . The most famous application is the one that use a 150K anoderesistor and a 1K7 kathoderesistor at the first triodesection.
The second ECC40 section serves as phase invertor using two identical ( 150K )resistors at both the anode and kathode. Input stage and phase invertor are DC-coupled and can work both on a 250 or 350 volt power supply. With 350 volt supply the application can deliver a proper 30 Volt effective output signal at 1% THD. More than enough in most cases!
Please take a look at the ECC40 PDF file ( figure B ). I can asure you this application is sounding fantastic too, I can highly recommend it to all "expiriment freaky" guys over there, you won't be disappointed ! Wanna bet? Try and taste it!!
Of course I can only speak for myself here , but one thing became very clear to me:
The ECC40 is surely a "damn good" tube to use as a signal amplifier at the input of any serious audio amplifier. Lot's of spacious sound, smooth but detailed from the bottom to the top!I decided to go on with this tube at the Rimlock Project, to increase the tubes performance ( voltage swing capability and lower the Rout ) I paralleled both triode sections.
Kind of gives me goosebumps to think the DRD's could be taken to another level of performance with just a simple socket change.
Kind of gives me goosebumps to think the DRD's could be taken to another level of performance with just a simple socket change. > >I've seen two rimlock sockets - I have loads of the ordinary ones which are slightly bigger than a 9 pin socket. I have just a single pair of ones with ceramic base which are a straight drop in to a 9 pin hole. No doubt these can be found in Europe somewhere but they are certainly rarer. They would make the conversion less problematic - it would be a drag to file out the chassis holes.
When I originally did a load of listening tests on 9 pin valves, I used the ECC40 in an adapter I made so it plugged into a 6922 base. I have a few ECC40s if anybody's interested. I'm in London UK. Andy
I'll need to double-check with Ron Welborne about substituting the ECC40 without other mods. Also, I need to be able to track down some rimlock sockets.But, you've definetly picqued my interest.
nt
I use DRD300B and Druids, with Joule Electra active pre in a medium-big room.I think that people who refer the DRDs being "thin" mean that it does not have the usual 300B "euphonic" mids. These are very clean amps.
A bit more richness would be welcome (for my taste) but I donīt think itīs a great issue with Druids, with these speakers you can get a bit of added richness adjusting placement and bottom height.A few days ago a friend was here and he said that it didnīt sound like tubes are supposed to. ???? I donīt know whether thatīs good or bad hehehe
_____________________________________I am from Galicia, so if you find me in a staircase, you wonīt know whether I go up or down ...
be excited!My comments are not based on first-hand experience, but third-hand conjecture. I do not think any SETs in general "lack tonal density or soul"; not at all! I was more paraphrasing what some people who should have some idea have suggested about the DRD, versus some other SETs, understanding that those other SETs will be less adept at some things the DRDs excel at.
My comment regarding getting someone performance that is 80% of what is potentially possible was in comparison to some beast that is almost a practical impossibility! DRDs are not cheap, but I think you would have to pay a lot more to get significantly "better" all round performance.
In any case, it all comes down to your personal truth: does your system present music in a way that facilitates your experience as you want, and then do a little bit more... One man's dense and palpable is another's rose-tinted editorialism.
I think the DRDs would be an awesome match with a TVC and the Zus - from what I can gather; all are very well regarded and they should balance each other very nicely... I wish I could experience music presented as you are about to.
Kind regards
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
Unfortunately there is a lot of what Ive got sounds greta in the web consumer revierws. More dicerning and thoughtful evaluation is what we really neeed, and you have been able to get some of that going in these pages.
Personally I am in the fence about a new 300B amp (Fi, Wright ,Welborne, Audionote, DocB?), and not being able to hear any of them makes me turn to these pages... Thanks Raymond
just trying to share the results of my reading (between the lines) and catching the occasional less-than-favourable comment - I have to put all of my (misspent) time to use. Over time, you get a feel for what some of the promoters (and reviewers) value in music reproduction, equipment, music, etc. Hopefully I can share some of my observations in a balanced manner.In the end, I am just trying to be helpful... even if I do place my proverbial foot in my mouth or have to fall on my sword on occasion.
Cheers
Raymond
Ultra-consumers: Spending money they do not have to buy things they do not need to impress people they do not like.
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