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Read this on the Mojo website. The Dave Clark 5 was actually voted in to the RR Hall. They take the top 5 vote-getters for the Hall and the DC5 was fifth. Jann Wenner of Rolling Stone led the panel to change the results and place Grandmaster Flash in the Hall because they felt they needed a rap act and it would make for better tv. Personally, leaving aside the fact that most Rap "artists" utilized, no wait, make that stole, errrrr SAMPLED, thats the word i'm looking for, Clive Stubblefield playing on James Brown's track “The Funky Drummer” for backing tracks to "Rap" over (in case you ever wondered why early rap all sounded the same), it's just shamefull that the panel would see fit to sidestep the rules just to vote in a freeking rap act. Reminds of of the past two Presidential elections.
Follow Ups:
If they gonna put in jazz & rap I vote for Ken Nordine who has recorded w/ rock & jazz musicians.
no instruments but rocking nonetheless.
Just curious if the same people who don't think rap belongs have a problem with jazz being included.Personally, I'm thinking either both...and you may as well toss in country (Is Hank Williams in there?) and just have a modern music hall of fame...or keep 'em both out and stick to a strict definition of rock 'n' roll.
But, as long as you're including non-rock music anyway. Rap has been the most popular modern form of music with a history stretching back 40 years now. So, writing it off completely is just kinda silly at this point.
And, yes, I have Bitches Brew. I mean aren't there enough deserving rock performers that the hall shouldn't have to be stretching genre categorization beyond all credibility to admit Jazz musicians. I mean, they refuse to consider nominating a single progressive act, but because Miles borrowed rock instrumentation for his fusion recordings and played a some hippie festivals he's a rocker? I personally imagine he would have laughed at his induction.Hank Williams was admitted in a now moribund "early influences" category that was for pre-rock and roll performers. Of course, Country Music has had their own hall of fame for decades.
While I've made the argument before that rap and hip-hop are really something new under the sun (at least as new as can actually exist, when talking about something evolutionary, like music) and therefore don't really belong in an institution puroportedly devoted to celebrating the history of rock music, to not include them shines a light on how segregated rock has become over the past couple of decades. I don't assign sinister motivation to this, it's just an observable fact. Thus there is the political pressure of Jann's "need" to have a rap act in there.
In addition, without expanding the definition to include all post war youth oriented popular music, you run the risk of running out of suitible nominees, as rock just isn't performing that well in the market place, and hasn't had a major movement since grunge. I mean, what do you do when your style of popular music just isn't that popular anymore? If you're Miles Davis in the 50s you reinvent it as an elite intellectual music, but, somehow, that doesn't seem very rock and roll.
It's 2007. Who cares about the Dave Clark 5? That was 45 years ago.Who cares about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame anyway?
I'd put in the Cramps myself. And Jonathan Richman. But it's not my hall of fame.
however, is a guy I've never gotten. "Modern Lovers" leaves me...cold. I'm almost embarrassed to admit I don't like him nor Elvis Costello, either.
I'm so ashamed...
Both the Raincoats and Jonathan Richman are deserving. Add to that Television and Be Bop Deluxe.
nt
all the best,
mrh
I have a lot of Jonathan Richman, going back to Modern Lovers. My favorite, for some reason, is Jonathan Goes Country. Great songs, great playing. But I like much of his stuff. A naive child-like view of life and love, and classic 50s style rock and roll melodies. And low volume in concert. Works for me.
adsf
"The second lasting lesson Jonathan taught me had to do with playing at a low volume to reveal the song instead of hiding behind a din just for the sake of volume."
Only visited it once, and my stay was cut very short as I was sick at the time. I'm sure it is much smaller in scope than the RRHOF, but what I saw was very well done. They do a good job with much of the music that predates, and is the roots of, what is commonly called Rock and Roll. Just by way of example there was a small but knowledgeable exhibit concerning Rosetta Tharpe.I really look forward to going back when I can spend more time there.
...but I visited the Experience Project in Seattle and it's phenomenal for anyone interested in rock and roll.Even though it focuses a lot on Seattle musicians and Hendrix.
For a great essay on the R&R Hall of Fame, check out Al Kooper's website. He's had some rather pointed observations about the whole thing, especially his disgust at the way Black Sabbath was treated at their own induction (and Al admits he hates their music but feels they were shabbily treated) to the rather testy interactions he's had with Hall reps. He tells it much better than I could ever hope.If the Hall was to live up to its charter, Al Kooper would have been
an early inductee. He's certainly earned a spot.
...please. You're in the business & you ever took this seriously? Good grief.Oh, wait, you were the one who threw out a Grammys reference a few days ago to try to make a point, as though that's something that should be taken seriously also. Puh.
Not sure what you have against Bobby McFerrin, though. He was certainly deemed worthy enough by plenty of cats to appear on their albums. Oh, but wait. He was on that Quincy Jones rap album. That's what you don't like about McFerrin, isn't it?
You can admit it. After all, yr opposition to Grandmaster Flash's induction was because that was a rap act, not for a valid reason...say, because that act's impact was limited to a couple of singles ?
Not sure why you would've continued to assign Jann Wenner any musical credibility. For me he showed he had none way back when I was but a wee lad, when he decided that the hippies were happening...and Brian Wilson wasn't.
Since I know you're a BW guy, if you're not familiar, see if you can dig up the anti-BBs screed Wenner ran in RS not long after he started publishing it. Omitting this detail in any rundown of the factors that drove BW to his troubles is a mistake.
Then, for once, try to apply some reasoning, and come to terms with the fact that this is the guy who calls the shots at that place.
I'm glad when I see acts I like get in, but raising ire because someone didn't is hardly worth the time & effort. Unless you give a damn what Jann Wenner thinks about music, and I never have.
No J,
My opposition is because the Dave Clark Five got fucked. Nothing more. Nothing less.
"My opposition is because the Dave Clark Five got fucked. Nothing more. Nothing less."I really don't have much opposition now, for the organization already has zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for the Grammy awards.
But the real problem is over that past quarter century, I think what's really getting f'ed is real music.
And it's gotten to the point where I'd be tempted to place the blame for the decline in music over that time at the very feet of those running these institutions. For I really think such "judgment" has enabled a fraudulent art to displace a real one, in the music industry. (What I call "fraudulent art" in this case is non-talent "made pretty" by technology. It's not so much what you're good at, but who you know in the industry.) And it has also "dumbed down" the public's discernment of the musical arts. And it's downright depressing whenever I think about it.
Sad, isn't it?
My issue with Wenner begins & ends with his hit piece on BW, and after that I have no desire to spend any time being concerned about what he thinks or does. I've spent far too much time, actually, having to explain why I don't give a sh*t about the RRHOF, RS, or the absurd view of rock put forth by these entities. You know: BBs bad, Hendrix good; McCartney bad, Lennon good; punk bad, Eagles good (substitute 'uncool' for bad and/or 'cool' for good if you wish). Now the PC aspect of it has gotten ridiculous. Most of the rap I listen to is from a long long time ago, and I saw Grandmaster Flash perform nearly 25 years ago. Suckage aplenty, in spite of how good the singles were. There was only one act that deserved to be the first rap inducted, and Flash weren't it. That would be Run-DMC. And I daresay the Hall could've waited two more friggin' years.As for Wenner, considering how long ago it was that he revealed himself to be a guy who cares more about cozying up to rock stars than to doing anything resembling critical thinking when it comes to music, I find it near-impossible to believe that anyone in the business could take this nonsense so seriously.
Oh, and I'm no expert on the subject, but I do believe there are some who would suggest that Clark did screw himself to an extent by operating outside what might be known as 'playing the game' and thereby enriching the types who control the RRHOF. Me, I have no problem with either 'selling out,' or 'not selling out,' depending on circumstances, and not including commercialism to the point of crassness. However, it might've behooved him to allow some use of DC5 material in ways that have benefited other acts of the same vintage, don't you think? Maybe I missed it, but I've seen far lesser work returned to the public consciousness due to placement in, say, popular Hollywood movies. DC don't go much for that sort of thing, do he? Maybe that's part of why there's no reason for oldies radio to play his music, because their audiences don't even recognize any of it.
All of which tells me that you care more about his being f*cked than he does.
It's always amusing to look back at what people were buying "back in the day" and compare that to what stands the test of time today. I'm thinking MOST folks today would put numbers 16 and 33 slightly ahead of number's 10 and 17 in the following list, no? Some might rate #68 just a tad higher too. Herb Alpert was hot then..claiming 5 of the top 10 spots. Would #26 or #76 even get recorded today? Might be hard to find folks now who would rate this list the same as it was then.
Here's Cash Box's final 1966 list:
1. THE SOUND OF MUSIC - Original Soundtrack (RCA Victor)
2. WHIPPED CREAM & OTHER DELIGHTS - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass (A&M)
3. GOING PLACES - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass (A&M)
4. DR. ZHIVAGO - Original Soundtrack (MGM)
5. SOUTH OF THE BORDER - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass (A&M)
6. THE BEST OF HERMAN’S HERMITS (MGM)
7. THE BEST OF THE ANIMALS (MGM)
8. WHAT NOW MY LOVE - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass (A&M)
9. LONELY BULL - Herb Alpert & The Tijuana Brass (A&M)
10. WHY IS THERE AIR? - Bill Cosby (Warner Bros.)
11. FIDDLER ON THE ROOF - Original Cast (RCA Victor)
12. IF YOU CAN BELIEVE YOUR EYES AND EARS - The Mamas & The Papas (Dunhill)
13. BIG HITS (High Tide And Green Grass) - The Rolling Stones (London)
14. MY NAME IS BARBRA, TWO... - Barbra Streisand (Columbia)
15. SEPTEMBER OF MY YEARS - Frank Sinatra (Reprise)
16. RUBBER SOUL - The Beatles (Capitol)
17. WONDERFULNESS - Bill Cosby (Warner Bros.)
18. GREATEST HITS - The Dave Clark Five (Epic)
19. STRANGERS IN THE NIGHT - Frank Sinatra (Reprise)
20. SPANISH EYES - Al Martino (Capitol)
21. LOU RAWLS LIVE! (Capitol)
22. AFTERMATH - The Rolling Stones (London)
23. GOLDEN HITS - Roger Miller (Smash)
24. SOMEWHERE, MY LOVE - Ray Conniff & His Orchestra (Columbia)
25. JUST LIKE US! - Paul Revere & The Raiders (Columbia)
26. BALLADS OF THE GREEN BERETS - SSgt. Barry Sadler (RCA Victor)
27. MARY POPPINS - Original Soundtrack (Buena Vista)
28. OUT OF OUR HEADS - The Rolling Stones (London)
29. DECEMBER’S CHILDREN (And Everybody’s) - The Rolling Stones (London)
30. BOOTS - Nancy Sinatra (Reprise)
31. HOUSTON - Dean Martin (Reprise)
32. THAT WAS THE YEAR THAT WAS - Tom Lehrer (Reprise)
33. PET SOUNDS - The Beach Boys (Capitol)
34. HELP! - Original Soundtrack/The Beatles (Capitol)
35. SOUL & INSPIRATION - The Righteous Brothers (Verve)
36. THE SHADOW OF YOUR SMILE - Johnny Mathis (Mercury)
37. MAME - Original Cast (Columbia)
38. CRYING TIME - Ray Charles (ABC)
39. MY FAIR LADY - Original Soundtrack (Columbia)
40. MAN OF LA MANCHA - Original Cast (Kapp)
41. REVOLVER - The Beatles (Capitol)
42. MIDNIGHT RIDE - Paul Revere & The Raiders (Columbia)
43. BEACH BOYS’ PARTY! - The Beach Boys (Capitol)
44. SOUNDS OF SILENCE - Simon & Garfunkel (Columbia)
45. THE YOUNG RASCALS (Atlantic)
46. “YESTERDAY”...AND TODAY - The Beatles (Capitol)
47. THUNDERBALL - Original Soundtrack (United Artists)
48. TURN! TURN! TURN! - The Byrds (Columbia)
49. DAYDREAM - The Lovin’ Spoonful (Kama Sutra)
50. HOLD ON! - Original Soundtrack/Herman’s Hermits (MGM)
51. LOOK AT US - Sonny & Cher (Atco)
52. THE SHADOW OF YOUR SMILE - Andy Williams (Columbia)
53. BEST OF THE BEACH BOYS (Capitol)
54. AND THEN...ALONG COMES THE ASSOCIATION (Valiant)
55. A MAN AND HIS MUSIC - Frank Sinatra (Reprise)
56. GETTIN’ READY - The Temptations (Gordy)
57. GOT MY MOJO WORKIN’ - Jimmy Smith (Verve)
58. THE SUPREMES AT THE COPA (Motown)
59. GOLD VAULT OF HITS - The 4 Seasons (Philips)
60. THE VENTURES A GO-GO (Dolton)
61. BLONDE ON BLONDE - Bob Dylan (Columbia)
62. MY NAME IS BARBRA - Barbra Streisand (Columbia)
63. GOING TO A GO-GO - Smokey Robinson & The Miracles (Tamla)
64. TEMPTIN’ TEMPTATIONS - The Temptations (Gordy)
65. BACK TO BACK - The Righteous Brothers (Philles)
66. I HEAR A SYMPHONY - The Supremes (Motown)
67. BILL COSBY IS A VERY FUNNY FELLOW, RIGHT! (Warner Bros.)
68. HIGHWAY 61 REVISITED - Bob Dylan (Columbia)
69. I’LL REMEMBER YOU - Roger Williams (Kapp)
70. ZORBA THE GREEK - Original Soundtrack (20th Century-Fox)
71. GREATEST HITS - Andy Williams (Columbia)
72. A TOUCH OF TODAY - Nancy Wilson (Capitol)
73. THE IMPOSSIBLE DREAM - Jack Jones (Kapp)
74. THE MOVIE SONG ALBUM - Tony Bennett (Columbia)
75. SINATRA AT THE SANDS - Frank Sinatra (Reprise)
76. WELCOME TO THE LBJ RANCH! - Earl Doud & Alen Robin (compilers) (Capitol)
77. YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE JEWISH - Various Artists (Kapp)
78. HANG ON RAMSEY! - The Ramsey Lewis Trio (Cadet)
79. FAREWELL, ANGELINA - Joan Baez (Vanguard)
80. HARUM SCARUM - Original Soundtrack/Elvis Presley (RCA Victor)
81. THE SUPREMES A’ GO-GO (Motown)
82. I WANT TO GO WITH YOU - Eddy Arnold (RCA Victor)
83. GREATEST HITS - The Kinks (Reprise)
84. DON’T GO TO STRANGERS - Eydie Gorme (Columbia)
85. SERGIO MENDES & BRASIL ’66 (A&M)
86. SEE WHAT TOMORROW BRINGS - Peter, Paul & Mary (Warner Bros.)
87. THE SONNY SIDE OF CHER (Imperial)
88. THE MAMAS & THE PAPAS (Dunhill)
89. ANIMALIZATION - The Animals (MGM)
90. SOULIN’ - Lou Rawls (Capitol)
91. DISTANT DRUMS - Jim Reeves (RCA Victor)
92. THE MAGIC MUSIC OF FAR AWAY PLACES - Bert Kaempfert & His Orchestra (Decca)
93. THE BEST OF RONNIE DOVE (Diamond)
94. GO WITH THE VENTURES! (Dolton)
95. WHERE THE ACTION IS - The Ventures (Dolton)
96. ORGAN GRINDER SWING - Jimmy Smith (Verve)
97. CHOICE! THE BEST OF THE RAMSEY LEWIS TRIO (Cadet)
98. YOUR ALL-TIME FAVORITE SONGS - John Gary (RCA Victor)
99. THE MONKEES (Colgems)
100. ROBERT GOULET ON BROADWAY (Columbia)
I think that radio play dictates what we like/don't like a lot more than most people realize. Hear something enough, you'll eventually like it. Hear something too much, you'll eventually hate it. Never hear something at all....therein lies the problem.
The walls are slowly falling. McCartney leaves Capitol for Starbucks. Rumor has it the Rolling Stones are gonna fly next. When Dylan leaves Columbia you'll know the end is near for the record bix as he know and loathe it
:o(
"We begged Jann to allow all six acts to be inducted. But he insisted that he couldn't because there wouldn't be enough time," my source said. "He wanted to have Aretha Franklin come and perform in memory of Ahmet Ertegun."Seems Wenner's ego is as bloated as ever and his sense of self importance still intact.
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
I was a charter member when this thing was gearing up. When it became clear it was a tool for records companies I did not renew my membership . It's a joke and a good way to suss up what the music biz is about these days. The DC5 should have been in years ago, but sincve Dave is sitting on his masters and no major is gonna make any money off them, no DC5.This is not the first time this has happenned. Finally, why is Wenner is big dog? He's a journalist (at best) not a musician. Check out the other active board members. It says it all. As it turns out, I'm glad Detroit did not get the RRHOF, which was the position I was bucking for way back when
'cause he's rich and powerful and deemed by many an arbitor of popular (read youth read money) musical taste and trends. For almost 40 years now (ha!).He rubs shoulders with ALL the right people and has for a long, long time. I imagine he's a bully too, and the rest of the board just aren't "rock n' roll" enough to stand up to him. Wenner was never really a "journalist' per se, and is a fairly piss poor writer. His strengths are as an editor and publisher that was in the exact right place at the exact right time and had a successful vision. He knows how to get what he wants done by others...done. You figure someone that's been so successful at that since his early 20's has it down to an art.
You're more than right to call the whole thing a joke. Then again, considering the amount of money, "prestige", influence and power involved with the whole RRHOF thing, it's no wonder its taken the sad path it has. The combination of those elements always seem to corrupt, so why should the RRHOF be any different?.
I've always felt it's akin to a miracle that so much great music has managed to reach us through the conniving cluthes of THE MUSIC BIZ!
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
I do have a problem with the way the R&R HofF does things. It needs a serious dose of credibility.
If only the DC-5 had the presence of mind to record on Atlantic records or it's subsidiaries, huh? Credibility would be nice....lets start with integrity, something severely lacking in the world these days.
... counts as integrity?
As the old(er) song went over yet another money issue of Black musicians not being paid...
"Pay Bo Diddley, Pay Bo Diddley"... you know the tune for this one.
nt
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