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In Reply to: The ElectroClear QRT (whose mode of operation is unspecified) evidently fills the room (as it were) with... posted by clarkjohnsen on April 24, 2007 at 09:53:43:
The Electroclear QRT 'technology' is similar to that used by the Tice clock and the Euphonic Technologies products, which, IIRC, was the real originator of the effect. Their products essentially 'dither' the AC line, adding a bit of noise which swamps the low order noise riding on most AC lines.
Stu
Follow Ups:
IOW it makes the power dirty? What then? Put the power through a line purifier and have the two battle it out? Dither works wonders on a digitally encoded audio signal. The idea that it would be good for a 60 hz analog signal is absurd logic. It's like putting sugar in your gas tank because it tastes good on pasteries. If it adds enough "dither" it will make an audible difference. One I don't expect would be good. But my expectations have been wrong before.
nt
LCR only.
Stu
I'm impressed that you know how to use one! Now; are you telling me that a phase measurement isn't important here? Your lack of comment and misdirection was duly noted. BTW: did you notice the photos of the inside on Audiocircle thread?
d.b.
dissected both the Quantums, Euphonic Technologies, and the Bybee, as I believe that is what you are referring to. The newer purifiers do have a very different construction, BTW. I've 'scoped their outputs too.
I have also read Olsher's review of the Bybee, in which he describes the unit as a new class of electronic devices: neither resistor, capacitor, or inductor. I believe Olsher, as a physicist for the government at Sandia, has security clearance and was privy to facts which may not be generally released, whether you believe that or not. If what Olsher states is true, then we need to examine the purifier in a different manner from that we are normally used to.
In asking my question, I was not attempting to demean your own investigation. It came about from my work in using the purifiers. It was a question aimed sincerely at finding out what the unit was doing. I can hypothesize, but I do have limited instrumentation, and what instrumentation I do have is also limited in sensitivity and range (military surplus for the most part). I did not attempt to conclusively 'prove' that the device was an expensive placebo, I merely attempted to focus attention to an area which has yet to be investigated. As I had stated earlier, it was a hypothesis, but you own response was for me to go back to school....
Stu
Stu - I have also read Olsher's review of the Bybee, in which he describes the unit as a new class of electronic devices: neither resistor, capacitor, or inductor.A new class of electronics? (top secret technology - being sold to the masses eh)
Now wait a second. Capacitance and inductance I'll concede, but resistance? Surely a pile of fresh bu****t offers some measurable resistance?
Put away your electrical technician tools Stu, this is a job for top secret sandia/area 51 physics measurement. I'll probably lose my job in the underground bunker for this, but here is a snapshot of what a real physicist would use to measure this and other such audiophile breakthroughs.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
But you were than happy to "blast me" for not taking a phase measurement on the 0.3 microhenry component of the nicely packaged power resistor.
Get a life;
d.b.
I asked a simple question. initially I did not debunk your measurements (and I still haven't!), I merely suggested another train of thought. You took it as an attack on yourself, which if you read the initial posts attempted to be as neutral as possible. I was and, I clearly stated this, attempting a hypothesis for the effect of the purifier that I experienced.You shot it down, saying essentially that the human mind did not need any experimentation nor measurements to even bother attempting to measure the effect heard. I do not have the equipment to do so, and I believe I stated that. You, as a manufacturer, may conceivably have more test gear or access to such gear than I do(I am admittedly an amateur and no E.E.)and may possibly answer the question. But I guess if John Curl doesn't have the test gear, why should you have the tools?
The quest was for an explanation, and not a personal attack on Bybee, Curl or, for that matter, Banquer. While there are many 'voodoo' tweaks, most in my experience, can be explained through basic science. I've dissected, x-rayed, and disassembled things like the Shun Mook discs, brilliant pebbles, and the Shakti Stones. I believe I know how and why they work, and can replicate their effect much more inexpensively, if not more elegantly.
Knowledge and thorough investigation is the key. Not everything that can influence sound has been discovered or made common knowledge. Furthering knowledge and spreading it advances the entire field. The choice is yours. You can drag things down or you can make a contribution.
I'm not saying that I can contribute, but then if I hear something, I try to understand the causality. I do not use my lack of understanding to debunk the perceived effect,
Stu
Just curious what exactly it is that you found, how you found it, and how it can be replicated?
The Shakti, Shun Mook. and Brilliant Pebbles work on the piezo effect which many crystals possess. Quartz and tourmaline's tend to be the more highly piezo electric crystals (as evidenced by the crystal oscillators in your cell phone and other digital appliances). Of the quartz family (citrine, amethyst, rose quartz, etc.), topaz seems to be the most electrically active.Fortunately, quartz is also the most common mineral on the Earth's surface. The Shakti is the most scientific about the use of quartz and the bricks and such, and actually form waveguides to order to focus the EMI/RFI fields upon the crystals.
You can use simple quartz crystals and duplicate much of the effect these devices have. I use the tumbled pieces found in many 'New Age' stores. The idea here is that the quartz will absorb some EMI/RFI and translate this absorption into mechanical motion, abit on a very small scale. You can buy a crystal formation and simply break it up with a hammer, too. Depending where you live, you can find it in your back yard at times.
I asked a PHD about this and when he witnessed the effect he was astonished that human perception could hear the effect. The percentage change he told me would probably involve counting the zeroes after the decimal point.
The key here is realizing that the crystals will work best if they can move, no matter how subtly, and then to place them in areas with strong EMI/RFI fields. Motors are a good place to start: TT motors, CD spin motors all benefit greatly. Remember that different sizes will affect different frequencies.
If you are worried abut them falling or moving out of place, use a piece of Blue tack or its equivalent, a soft putty which should not hinder movement much. I placed some in a contact lens holder and filled it with a bit of oil and that increased the effect, at least when properly placed.Stu
"I asked a PHD about this and when he witnessed the effect he was astonished that human perception could hear the effect. The percentage change he told me would probably involve counting the zeroes after the decimal point."Typical PhD. I think that is called Being in Denial. :-)
~ GK
Stu said this was all on "a very small scale". How does one define a very small scale? Before the decimal point, or after???
I think Stu and the PhD are both more than a little confused about the subject. But, hey, that's just me. :-)
So his belief/explanation doesn't jive with yours? It seemed to - absorption capabilities of minerals...
I was basically objecting to the conjecture that the effects (of crystals on sound) are small. But also worth noting, since you ask, that in most applications Brilliant Pebbles have precious little to do with EMI/RFI absorption. Does that help answer the question?
" I've dissected, x-rayed, and disassembled things like the Shun Mook discs, brilliant pebbles, and the Shakti Stones. I believe I know how and why they work, and can replicate their effect much more inexpensively, if not more elegantly."Yeah; you can photographs of your self in the freezer, that'll work and cheaply too.
d.b.
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