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In Reply to: What Constitues A "Properly Designed" Amp? posted by thetubeguy1954 on April 13, 2007 at 06:31:53:
Must be easy to do since some tube amps met that definition in the 1960's when used with very efficient speakers of that era.A simple product that audiophiles complicate by comparing amps playing music at different SPL's and then declaring they all sound different!
Other than wires, no other components are more difficult to differentiate than non-clipping solid state amplifiers playing full-range music at the same SPL.
To the extent that a tube amplifier can produce an audible difference, versus a solid state amplifier, the difference is most likely caused by high output impedance affecting the frequency response of the speakers. Maybe a pleasing coloration, but not accuracy.
The choice of the brand/model of (non-clipping) amplifier is not very important (like speaker brand/models are) except in the imaginations of high end audiophiles where everything is imagined to sound different, which may be true because components are rarely compared playing music at the same volumes ... and sometimes not even in the same rooms on the same day!
Okay go to work TubeGuy1954 and really give me the business!
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Follow Ups:
Richard,There's really nothing to give you "the business" about. We have different POVs but you give yours usually, without a need to berate mine. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my POV, if they can express their POV without a need to attack mine while doing so.
After reading your post I think where we really disagree is what constitutes accuracy. I don't believe tubed equipment provides a presentation that's less accurate albeit with a pleasing coloration. IMHO the more accurate presentation is the one from an audio component, be it tubed or solidstate, the replicates the sound of a piano, sax, guitar, singer etc., the closest to how the ear/brain hears it were it to listen to that same instrument live and unamplified. Now "if" I understand your postion of accuracy you're defining accuracy as how being the audio component that most closely matches a microphone's output signal.
I don't believe to the extent that a tube amplifier can produce an audible difference, versus a solid state amplifier, that difference is most likely caused by high output impedance affecting the frequency response of the speakers. My reasoning is I heard Bob Carver's Sunfire amps when he offered (he may still do so I don't know) two different outputs on the back of the same amp. One of these outputs supposedly sounded like a tube amp and was labled as voltage and one the other one sounded like a solidstate amp and was labled current. IIRC the ONLY difference between these 2 outputs was the tube sounding output had a high output impedance and the solidstate sounding one did not. I can only tell you that in my subjective opinion the high impedance output of the Sunfire amps which "supposedly" sounded like a tube amp didn't, in fact subjectively it wasn't as pleasing as the low impedance solidstate sounding output from the same amp. So there MUST be something else going on besides there being a high impedance that effects why a tubed amp sounds so realistic.
Have a nice day Richard...
The illusion of realism apparently does not necessarily correspond perfectly with the accuracy of the amplification stage of audio recording and playback systems. We see the same phenomenon with LPs v. CDs
could be that one is simply trading more audible distortions for less audible ones. IMO, a sense of greater realism is not due to "euphonic" distortions, simply less audible ones.
Could be both.
This is very much in line with the sort of advice objectivists tend to offer. Back in the day I followed it and was very disappointed in the results. But if it works for you that is great. It certainly is a less expensive approach.
Back when I was young and stupid, I bought an AR integrated amp on specs alone. I can only imagine how the "low distortion" AR amp would fare on the SLs. After all, I had the McIntosh amp clinic test results to prove it!
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