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In Reply to: These are the most favorably reviewed speakers in the history of audio posted by Richard BassNut Greene on April 7, 2007 at 21:37:02:
What proof do you have? I don't want to hear about subjetivist rantings, audiophool hearsay and "ear witness" testimony.
Can you present some scientific data to support you claim of these being the most favorably reviewed speakers of all time? Where is the statistical data? Where is the factual evidence?
Sounds like you just dreamed that up, subjectivist style. Oh well, you are supposed to be one now anyway.RBNG - I hve argued online with Linkwitz about whether it is fair to compare a dipole design with an unequalized monopole design (because in most rooms the dipole design has an inherent advantage in bass frequency response). However in some rooms dipoles can create nasty bass booms from strong front-wall-to-back wall standing waves (which are particularly easy to hear with dipoles because other standing waves, between other room surfaces, are weaker with dipoles)
I think dipoles should always be compared with parametrically equalized bass monoples.
Dipoles must use bass EQ, so why not use bass EQ with any monopole speakers you are comparing them with?Whoa. Hang on a second there tough guy. A dipole (such as the Orion) is *pre* equalized as an integral part of the design, for flat anechoic response, in the same way that eq must be applied to a horn tweeter to correct the response.
Never heard of a linkwitz transform? Most decent (sealed) mass market subs use them now. That *pre* eq in a monopole right there for you.
An Orion could still be eq'd *in room* just like your monopole. As a matter of fact, Linkwitz himself has remarked that the closest he has heard a monopole sound like a dipole in room was the TACT system
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm#B
The systems I have heard with extensive RMC did sound much better than the typical monopole box in room sound, but IMHO, still not quite there, plus adding yet another processor is audiophile blasphemy, so forget it if you want to maintain your GE subjectivist status.
Do keep in mind that SL now uses the Thor's full time to address the real weakness of dipole bass, which is pressurising the room at very low frequency (<40hz). I believe the system Kerr heard was the full monty ++ which is full range dipole above 50hz and monopole below (cardioid at xo).cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
Follow Ups:
I still can't see how this speaker has an advantage over a dipole line source. The line source doesn't have the problems with floor or ceiling bounce muddying up the imaging, timbre or soundstage. In general dipoles seem to have real, in room, advantages over most monopole speakers so I would like to hear what they are all about sometime.
What proof do you have? I don't want to hear about subjetivist rantings, audiophool hearsay and "ear witness" testimony.
RG
If you can't accept the consistently positive subjective reviews of Orion speakers from a wide variety of audiophiles, including non-Golden Ear DIY speaker builders, at a wide variety of websites, as good anecdotal evidence of a superior speaker, then you need another hobby.
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.Whoa. Hang on a second there tough guy. A dipole (such as the Orion) is *pre* equalized as an integral part of the design, for flat anechoic response, in the same way that eq must be applied to a horn tweeter to correct the response.
RG
Orions have significant electronic EQ which is included in the price.
It should be acceptable to compare Orions with EQ'd monopoles.
If EQ is acceptable for the Orions, then it would be acceptable for other speakers. I suppose Golden Ears who just hate EQ might want to avoid Orions.
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Do keep in mind that SL now uses the Thor's full time to address the real weakness of dipole bass, which is pressurising the room at very low frequency ( <40hz). I believe the system Kerr heard was the full monty ++ which is full range dipole above 50hz and monopole below (cardioid at xo).
RG
I had not looked at Linkwitz's website for quite a while and thank you for the link. I had been under the impression that Linkwitz used a pair of dipole subwoofers at home based on a picture at his website. One looked like a plant stand. It would be a foolish engineering decision to use a monopole subwoofer with dipole main speakers, unless the much lower cost of monopole bass was an object.Depending on room dimensions, and the crossover frequency, the monopole subwoofer may excite one or two room bass resonances more a dipole subwoofer would. Why would that be a good thing to do when you prefer monopole bass?
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
RG - If you can't accept the consistently positive subjective reviews of Orion speakers from a wide variety of audiophiles, including non-Golden Ear DIY speaker builders, at a wide variety of websites, as good anecdotal evidence of a superior speaker, then you need another hobby.Hmmm. My tongue in cheek commentary flies over the head of Mr. Tongue in cheek? Must be the you-are-now-a-subjectivist thing where everything is taken seriously and literally.
RG - Orions have significant electronic EQ which is included in the price.
It should be acceptable to compare Orions with EQ'd monopoles.
If EQ is acceptable for the Orions, then it would be acceptable for other speakers. I suppose Golden Ears who just hate EQ might want to avoid OrionsOnce again Richard, the Orion is an active system with *fixed* eq built into the design. For active room eq, one would still need an outboard equalizer. If you want to compare it to an active monopole with eq built into the filter network, go right ahead. There are plenty active monitors with inherent eq. What anechoic eq would you apply to the monopole that would allow it to complete more evenly with the Orion when placed in a room? The system Kerr listened to was not described as having a separate eq for in room correction.
One of the attributes of the Orion is that very little if any *in room* eq will be needed. Try that with your pre-eq'd active monopole. It will behave just the same way as a well designed, flat anechoic passive monopole, which is mucho excitement of room modes and highly unnatural bass which we all know well - and for some - enjoy.
You're absolutely right about the Orion not being for the GE's like Scatabrain.RG - It would be a foolish engineering decision to use a monopole subwoofer with dipole main speakers, unless the much lower cost of monopole bass was an object.
Depending on room dimensions, and the crossover frequency, the monopole subwoofer may excite one or two room bass resonances more a dipole subwoofer would. Why would that be a good thing to do when you prefer monopole bass?Once again, the monopole sub is used *below* 50hz, where there are few room modes to begin with. Also remember that @ 50hz, the radiation will be cardioid, not monopole. You probably don't have true monopole radiation until down in the 30's, where there are even less modes to excite.
If you are still obsessed with near perfection, then use multiple monopole subs (4) (below 50hz) around the room, with parametric eq, at equal radial distances, like I do. Helps keep non-linear distortion low as well.
FYI, the rears are 12" Rythmik Servosubs and the fronts are bipolar 12" Peerless XLS12's.cheers,
AJ
p.s. looks like the censors decided to remove my response to AnalogScott. So much for no moderation here huh
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
No subjective Golden Ear audiophile has a sense of humor about high-end audio.Too much money invested in the Golden Ear beliefs.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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