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In Reply to: 9 hours with the Linkwitz Labs Orion loudspeaker system posted by kerr on April 7, 2007 at 20:23:51:
From the mid-1960's until 2007 I have never seen such favorable reviews for any speaker including kit speakers. That so many reviews are from DIY speaker-builders who usually nit-pick other people's speaker designs, and always think they can improve the designs with their tweaks, is even more amazing. No DIY speaker builder wants to admit someone else has created a speaker design that makes their designs sound like Bose.I hve argued online with Linkwitz about whether it is fair to compare a dipole design with an unequalized monopole design (because in most rooms the dipole design has an inherent advantage in bass frequency response). However in some rooms dipoles can create nasty bass booms from strong front-wall-to-back wall standing waves (which are particularly easy to hear with dipoles because other standing waves, between other room surfaces, are weaker with dipoles)
I think dipoles should always be compared with parametrically equalized bass monoples.
Dipoles must use bass EQ, so why not use bass EQ with any monopole speakers you are comparing them with?
For monopole speakers the most effective EQ is likely to be parametric EQ used to eliminate all bass peaks under 100Hz.
(measured at the primary seating position).Only then you can have a fair comparison of equalized Orion dipoles versus an equalized monopole speaker of a comparable price, IMHO
That crafty Linkwitz used a dipole design to address the important room acoustics uneven bass problem but using specially selected conventional drivers for lower distortion than with planar dipoles and electrostatic dipoles). A lifetime of learning in Linkwitz designs and he shares so much info with DIY speaker builders too!
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Follow Ups:
Audionote j/spe as shilled by the asylums own RGA, many many many times as he slags other speakers that get too much attention.
What proof do you have? I don't want to hear about subjetivist rantings, audiophool hearsay and "ear witness" testimony.
Can you present some scientific data to support you claim of these being the most favorably reviewed speakers of all time? Where is the statistical data? Where is the factual evidence?
Sounds like you just dreamed that up, subjectivist style. Oh well, you are supposed to be one now anyway.RBNG - I hve argued online with Linkwitz about whether it is fair to compare a dipole design with an unequalized monopole design (because in most rooms the dipole design has an inherent advantage in bass frequency response). However in some rooms dipoles can create nasty bass booms from strong front-wall-to-back wall standing waves (which are particularly easy to hear with dipoles because other standing waves, between other room surfaces, are weaker with dipoles)
I think dipoles should always be compared with parametrically equalized bass monoples.
Dipoles must use bass EQ, so why not use bass EQ with any monopole speakers you are comparing them with?Whoa. Hang on a second there tough guy. A dipole (such as the Orion) is *pre* equalized as an integral part of the design, for flat anechoic response, in the same way that eq must be applied to a horn tweeter to correct the response.
Never heard of a linkwitz transform? Most decent (sealed) mass market subs use them now. That *pre* eq in a monopole right there for you.
An Orion could still be eq'd *in room* just like your monopole. As a matter of fact, Linkwitz himself has remarked that the closest he has heard a monopole sound like a dipole in room was the TACT system
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/design_of_loudspeakers.htm#B
The systems I have heard with extensive RMC did sound much better than the typical monopole box in room sound, but IMHO, still not quite there, plus adding yet another processor is audiophile blasphemy, so forget it if you want to maintain your GE subjectivist status.
Do keep in mind that SL now uses the Thor's full time to address the real weakness of dipole bass, which is pressurising the room at very low frequency ( <40hz). I believe the system Kerr heard was the full monty ++ which is full range dipole above 50hz and monopole below (cardioid at xo).cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
I still can't see how this speaker has an advantage over a dipole line source. The line source doesn't have the problems with floor or ceiling bounce muddying up the imaging, timbre or soundstage. In general dipoles seem to have real, in room, advantages over most monopole speakers so I would like to hear what they are all about sometime.
What proof do you have? I don't want to hear about subjetivist rantings, audiophool hearsay and "ear witness" testimony.
RG
If you can't accept the consistently positive subjective reviews of Orion speakers from a wide variety of audiophiles, including non-Golden Ear DIY speaker builders, at a wide variety of websites, as good anecdotal evidence of a superior speaker, then you need another hobby.
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.Whoa. Hang on a second there tough guy. A dipole (such as the Orion) is *pre* equalized as an integral part of the design, for flat anechoic response, in the same way that eq must be applied to a horn tweeter to correct the response.
RG
Orions have significant electronic EQ which is included in the price.
It should be acceptable to compare Orions with EQ'd monopoles.
If EQ is acceptable for the Orions, then it would be acceptable for other speakers. I suppose Golden Ears who just hate EQ might want to avoid Orions.
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Do keep in mind that SL now uses the Thor's full time to address the real weakness of dipole bass, which is pressurising the room at very low frequency ( <40hz). I believe the system Kerr heard was the full monty ++ which is full range dipole above 50hz and monopole below (cardioid at xo).
RG
I had not looked at Linkwitz's website for quite a while and thank you for the link. I had been under the impression that Linkwitz used a pair of dipole subwoofers at home based on a picture at his website. One looked like a plant stand. It would be a foolish engineering decision to use a monopole subwoofer with dipole main speakers, unless the much lower cost of monopole bass was an object.Depending on room dimensions, and the crossover frequency, the monopole subwoofer may excite one or two room bass resonances more a dipole subwoofer would. Why would that be a good thing to do when you prefer monopole bass?
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RG - If you can't accept the consistently positive subjective reviews of Orion speakers from a wide variety of audiophiles, including non-Golden Ear DIY speaker builders, at a wide variety of websites, as good anecdotal evidence of a superior speaker, then you need another hobby.Hmmm. My tongue in cheek commentary flies over the head of Mr. Tongue in cheek? Must be the you-are-now-a-subjectivist thing where everything is taken seriously and literally.
RG - Orions have significant electronic EQ which is included in the price.
It should be acceptable to compare Orions with EQ'd monopoles.
If EQ is acceptable for the Orions, then it would be acceptable for other speakers. I suppose Golden Ears who just hate EQ might want to avoid OrionsOnce again Richard, the Orion is an active system with *fixed* eq built into the design. For active room eq, one would still need an outboard equalizer. If you want to compare it to an active monopole with eq built into the filter network, go right ahead. There are plenty active monitors with inherent eq. What anechoic eq would you apply to the monopole that would allow it to complete more evenly with the Orion when placed in a room? The system Kerr listened to was not described as having a separate eq for in room correction.
One of the attributes of the Orion is that very little if any *in room* eq will be needed. Try that with your pre-eq'd active monopole. It will behave just the same way as a well designed, flat anechoic passive monopole, which is mucho excitement of room modes and highly unnatural bass which we all know well - and for some - enjoy.
You're absolutely right about the Orion not being for the GE's like Scatabrain.RG - It would be a foolish engineering decision to use a monopole subwoofer with dipole main speakers, unless the much lower cost of monopole bass was an object.
Depending on room dimensions, and the crossover frequency, the monopole subwoofer may excite one or two room bass resonances more a dipole subwoofer would. Why would that be a good thing to do when you prefer monopole bass?Once again, the monopole sub is used *below* 50hz, where there are few room modes to begin with. Also remember that @ 50hz, the radiation will be cardioid, not monopole. You probably don't have true monopole radiation until down in the 30's, where there are even less modes to excite.
If you are still obsessed with near perfection, then use multiple monopole subs (4) (below 50hz) around the room, with parametric eq, at equal radial distances, like I do. Helps keep non-linear distortion low as well.
FYI, the rears are 12" Rythmik Servosubs and the fronts are bipolar 12" Peerless XLS12's.cheers,
AJ
p.s. looks like the censors decided to remove my response to AnalogScott. So much for no moderation here huh
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
No subjective Golden Ear audiophile has a sense of humor about high-end audio.Too much money invested in the Golden Ear beliefs.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Where would I find reviews of the Orions?I'm a little ashamed of liking these speakers so much. It just seems so... so objectivst! :)
Anyway, these are on the cusp of "affordable" and I'm thankful they aren't priced like his Beethovens of the past. I'm trying to think of a comparable favor I can do to my friend who owns them to transport them to my room for a few days! I suppose I could offer to babysit his 20 year old daughter, just for a week or so....
A list of speakers with a large percentage of positive reviews can help you dicide what models to audition, but read a review before an audition and you are likely to biased by what you read. After an audition why would you care what someone else thinks. What you really need is to hear a pair in your room ... or if not possible hear them in two or more different rooms. One great room can make even an average speaker sound very good. If speakers sound good in three different rooms, then they are most likely very good speakers.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
But I would imagine I'd find them interesting.I'm going to lie low for a bit and allow John (easier to name him than to say "my friend" or "that lucky bastid" all the time) some time to play with them. In the meantime I need to find something he wants and we'll swap - his speakers in my room for a weekend for whatever he deems fair. Knowing him I can probably kiss that bottle of Hennessey XO goodbye along with my kitchen table....
But you and Aczel now have a lot in common :-).Kerr - I suppose I could offer to babysit his 20 year old daughter, just for a week or so....
You disgust me.
You're supposed to be his friend.
I, on the other hand, am not. So if you need me to babysit her for a week or so for the fund raising effort (or other such raising efforts), I could certainly oblige.Cheers,
AJ
p.s. don't know if you saw the Beethoven review in Stereophool all those years ago, but it did include, gasp (tubey, don't look) - measurements! http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/328/
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
> But you and Aczel now have a lot in common :-). <HA! I'M the angry old fart that can't hear with the vendetta against high end audio. Hey, wait a minute... er... ahem... gurbleflurb... ah, GEEZ! Well, I'm not Peter Aczel but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once upon a time and I did download a bunch of Audio Critics....
> You're supposed to be his friend. <
Just like fighting and clawing for the last beer, some things transcend mere friendship. I'll... heh, heh... call you if I need you!
> p.s. don't know if you saw the Beethoven review in Stereophool all those years ago, <
Saw it but never heard the speakers, although I do recall hearing a "lesser" model in the same line. They were good but not life changing.
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