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In Reply to: The real argument is Good Illusion of live music versus Bad illusion -- analog or digital make little difference posted by Richard BassNut Greene on April 6, 2007 at 08:09:05:
Hi Richard,I agree that the issue is to create an believable illusion of live music inside a home listening room.
Perhaps you believe this illusion was easily created in 1960's ers High Fidelity shows where a string quartet pretended to play music in an auditorium while AR speakers played a good mastertape of the quartet. I personally have my doubts with believing that. Given that today's equipment, especially speakers IMHO is so much better than the equipment of the 60's and knowing I've NEVER mistaken live music for recorded or visa versa, nor do I know anyone who has, I find it difficult any experienced music lovers were fooled at High Fidelitys display.
What does analog versus digital have to do with that illusion? You decide for yourself...
Thetubeguy1954
Follow Ups:
I was, however, involved with large speakers in a large auditorium where the audience could not tell if behind the screen there was a live small group playing live or merely speakers. I knew that it was reproduced but could not believe how many said they thought it was live music. I too am amazed at how many here claim their music reproduction sound real to them, including Richard, if I recall correctly.Obviously, the quality of the illusion is what motivates audiophiles. Who can take issue with that. As to whether analog or digital do the best in this illusion, I think at their best I can hear differences but not give the nod to one rather than the other. I still prefer vinyl whether it is because of old ears or the superiority of analog reproduction I would not claim to know. It doesn't really matter to one not influenced by the measurement of the wrong things in audio.
x
The reflections in the room have lot to do with the illusion of live music.Almost all home listening rooms are too small to sound like we are hearing live music in a nightclub or auditorium {we almost always hear live music in large venues}.
That problem has nothing to do with the analog vs. digital debate because even live music played in typical hi-fi rooms at home (few people have tried this) doesn't sound like a typical live concert! There are too many early reflections and bass is very uneven in most home audio rooms.
Of course with two-channel audio we have any room ambience in the recording coming at our ears from in front of us ... versus coming mainly from the sides and rear at a concert in a real auditorium.
Even more amusing is that most acoustic concerts are mono or near-mono unless you sit quite close to the performers. With amplified instruments (are there any other kind outside of classical music these days?) the music is mixed to mono for the PA speakers.
The real issues are:
-Room reflections in small rooms at home versus in an auditorium-Visual cues of people playing instruments (live or on video)
-Mono or near-mono heard in concerts from most seats versus the artificial "stereo soundstage" created in a recording studio
-The ability of home speakers to play at concert levels with low distortion
- When we solve all the above problems, then the issue of analog versus digital deserves some debate:
Digital is a superior low-noise low-distortion format
Analog is for old geezers who can't hear noise and distortion.Both formats are easy to attack because they so rarely meet their potential -- the real enemy is recording and mastering engineers who do not try to give us high quality sound, not the formats themselves.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
> Both formats are easy to attack because they so rarely meet their potential -- the real enemy is recording and mastering engineers who do not try to give us high quality sound, not the formats themselves. <So true.
On another audio site I was checking out, PHP's own Dan Banquer writes that he used to be an audiophile until he found out what was happening in the recording studio.
What a huge disappointment!None of your classic jokes? (1%)
Not even a veiled character attack?
Or a bad joke? (99%)
What has become of this place?
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How many objectivists does it take to change a lightbulb?Four. Two to test the house wiring (after 6 hours of arguing whether to use 75 or 100 watt bulbs), one to change the bulb and one to bitch that the newfound light invalidates the DBT protocol.
Sorry - forgot the veil... or did you mean a "personal" character attack? Hmmm... let me think... oh, yeah. Yer deaf!
I'm off to audition speakers... with a subwoofer... and a solid state amp... and equalization...and generic cables. I'll be an objectivist yet!
Nice to hear you're finally thinking about UPGRADING your system.Wear a hat -- subwoofers, solid state amps, equalizers and generic cables will make your hair fall out. Happened to me (that's what I use at home).
Hope the EQ is parametric and is used for the subwoofer where it can do the most good and is much less likely to make the sound worse. Always try listening with the EQ bypass switch on too.
When youi finally buy a decent system, please do not donate your current Blose Acoustimess Shreikers to charity.
Just burn them.
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> Nice to hear you're finally thinking about UPGRADING your system. <It would be an upgrade for sure.
> Hope the EQ is parametric <
The owner of the speakers is better than a parametric - he's a full fledged M.D!
> When youi finally buy a decent system, please do not donate your current Blose Acoustimess Shreikers to charity.
Just burn them. <I'm an analog guy, remember? I have a Sears Close-N-Play. Evil Digital!
You'd sure have my vote for Dog Catcher's AssistantR. BassNut Greene
Executive Washroom Attendant
in chrge of even-numbered stalls -- retired
(formerly Village Idiot
until I accidentally
burned down the village)
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
> You'd sure have my vote for Dog Catcher's Assistant <I'm already Dog Catcher's Assistant. We supply strays to most of the Greek restaurants in town. But thanks for your support.
Yes, I saw your Greek comments on General but I didn't think you'd set me up this well! :)
The food is not fit for dogsBa Da Boom
R. BassNut Greene
Coming to you with a belly full of Spinach pie, souvlacki
and Greek Easter bread. According to my calculations the amount
of walking to work off these calories is 148.7 miles.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
> Coming to you with a belly full of Spinach pie, souvlacki
and Greek Easter bread. According to my calculations the amount
of walking to work off these calories is 148.7 miles. <Spinach Pie sounds interesting. It's a combination of something bad with something good in an effort to lend culinary credibility to the former. Other varietals include Puke Mignon, Liver Cake and Snot Brulee. Yummy. But if you walk over this way, stop by and wash that stuff down with a few cold ones and some tunes. I'll even substitute the good cables for zipcord - just for YOU!
"-Visual cues of people playing instruments (live or on video)"Silly of me to think that music would be an assemblage of auditory cues.
"-Mono or near-mono heard in concerts from most seats versus the artificial "stereo soundstage" created in a recording studio"
I'll agree with that
-"The ability of home speakers to play at concert levels with low distortion"
Who the hell wants anything that loud in their living room? Who the hell wants to have the air in the room go totally non linear with those kind of SPL's? I can't imagine the neighbors appreciating it either. Count me out Bass Nut.
d.b.
Of course if you wanted to duplicate the sound of live rock concerts you should use huge PA speakers mixed to mono, wear earplugs, smoke dope, and use some digital vocals processing device that makes the recorded vocals sound 'off key' as you listen.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
You would be amazed just how much SPL an orchestra can generate, and yet it doesn't sound that loud live does it? Or maybe that's why it takes a 120 db dynamic range to reproduce an orchestra.
d.b.
> The reflections in the room have lot to do with the illusion of live music.well yeah, they can destroy it.
> Almost all home listening rooms are too small to sound like we are hearing live music in a nightclub or auditorium {we almost always hear live music in large venues}.i don't think it is size as much as the reflectivity of the boundaries.
> That problem has nothing to do with the analog vs. digital debate
True.
> because even live music played in typical hi-fi rooms at home (few people have tried this) doesn't sound like a typical live concert!
That is true.> There are too many early reflections and bass is very uneven in most home audio rooms.
or the room is too damped. Either way it is futile. But then if the playback room had similar acoustics to a concert hall it would be a bad playback room. they serve very different purposes and what is good for one is bad for the other.
> Of course with two-channel audio we have any room ambience in the recording coming at our ears from in front of us ... versus coming mainly from the sides and rear at a concert in a real auditorium.
That is true but it is low level information and is not as obviously directional as the acoustic information coming to us straight from the instruments. so while not perfect it can still go a long way towards creating an illusion of a large space in one's listening room. the bigger problem usually is the cues one gets from the sound of their listening room imposing itself over the ambient information on the recording. the ambient information on a recording, for it to be effective has to be at the right level which is ultimately a very low level. to get the sound of the listening room to not interfere with that, it has to be at a substantially lower level. that is hard to do in what is usually a reletively small space.
> Even more amusing is that most acoustic concerts are mono or near-mono unless you sit quite close to the performers.
No. Not even close.
> With amplified instruments (are there any other kind outside of classical music these days?)Yes.
> the music is mixed to mono for the PA speakers.
Sometimes but so what? I don't think any of us are using concert PA systems as a reference.
> The real issues are:
-Room reflections in small rooms at home versus in an auditorium
Almost. the real issue is listening room reflections v. the *recorded* reflections of the original venue.
> -Visual cues of people playing instruments (live or on video)
Live sure, they actually corelate with the aural information. Not so with video playback.
> -Mono or near-mono heard in concerts from most seats versus the artificial "stereo soundstage" created in a recording studio
Not so sure it is "artificial." It may or may not be *accurate* to the original event from a particular position within the venue but it certainly can come quite close with the right recording techniques.
> -The ability of home speakers to play at concert levels with low distortion
It is not about playing at concert levels but about playing at the levels heard from the intended perspective of the recording. This certainly is an issue with much jazz.
> - When we solve all the above problems, then the issue of analog versus digital deserves some debate:
It always deserves debate but not in such broad terms.
> Digital is a superior low-noise low-distortion format
Analog is for old geezers who can't hear noise and distortion.There is a fine example of such broad terms. thank you.
> Both formats are easy to attack because they so rarely meet their potential -- the real enemy is recording and mastering engineers who do not try to give us high quality sound, not the formats themselves.
I agree with this whole heartedly.
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"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
... the trombone slide will hit you in the nose!This can be proven with science however why bother -- just look at the dent in my nose and my lawsuit against the trombone player now winding its way through the judicial system.
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Richard BassNut Greene
Subjective Audiophile 2007
Humph! Humph! I say. I get that already with cheap wires! See my bandaged nose? That's why I don't play trombone music very often--except for concertos, where they're placed farther back.http://www.boop.org/jan/justso/camel.htm
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"Opposition brings concord. Out of discord comes the fairest harmony."
------Heraclitus of Ephesis (fl. 504-500 BC), trans. Wheelwright.
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