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In Reply to: Are You Really This Ignorant? posted by thetubeguy1954 on April 2, 2007 at 11:56:40:
--The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
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The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
I have a chance to hear the Orion speakers this weekend. Unfortunately, it won't be in my own system. Still, it's a system I'm pretty familiar with so I'm looking forward to it.I seem to recall you bought those after listening to planars for awhile? Or was it 'stats? Anyway, your comments were interesting to this guy who has been hooked on Maggies for years. Sounds like the Orions solved some of the issues you'd found with planars... er... or 'stats... the same issues that I've been able to overcome but wish I didn't have to.
Kerr - I have a chance to hear the Orion speakers this weekend. Unfortunately, it won't be in my own system. Still, it's a system I'm pretty familiar with so I'm looking forward to it.The one variable you can eliminate is the recording. Bring along those CD's that you are intimately familiar with.
Kerr - I seem to recall you bought those after listening to planars for awhile? Or was it 'stats?
That is a gross understatement. I owned good ol' monopoles, went to planars then stats. Loved em but there was always that something missing. The dynamic power of real, live instruments (sucks having a brother in law that is a pretty good drummer). Horns at the time were (and still are, outside of Geddes, Danley and a very few others)much to colored though they had the real life dynamics in spades. Had that dreadful boxiness that was not there in planars/stats.
Went bipole. Close but still not there. Went back to DIY as I had when attending college (EE). Made my own fully active asymmetric bipoles with variable rear radiation via remote. Stumbled across the Orions (friend of a friend with some wacky new speakers).
Laughed that the solution had been in front of my face all along, but I could not see it. The planar/stat boxless openess and see through clarity with power and dynamics from the low distortion piston sources. Controlled directivity like a horn to reduce room masking. The price of course is it must have room to breathe - away from the front wall. Nothing that should stand in the way of a true music lover.
BTW, I want to be clear, being now a die-hard DIYer, my first thought after realizing I must have one - was how to modify it to my specific requirements. Hence the waveguide/ring radiator instead of the Seas Millenium (itself a stellar performer), etc., so mine is not a true Orion.
No matter. Hear it for yourself and decide if it is for you.cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
> The one variable you can eliminate is the recording. Bring along those CD's that you are intimately familiar with. <Yep, bringing my basic three! Thankfully, I don't audition a lot of gear or I'd be sick of those same three CD's and they're three of my favorites! :)
> Loved em but there was always that something missing. <
My thoughts exactly about planars. They're the best I've heard (in my price range) but they're certainly not perfect.
It took the guy who owns the Orions what seemed (to him) to be an inordinately long time to position them but now he thinks he's got them right. And he sold his Maggie 20.1's, my reference speaker. That is what really peaked my interest... this guy has been a Maggiephile for 15 years.
Thanks for the info. Now you can go back to your wrestling match with Tubeguy. :)
Kerr - Yep, bringing my basic three! Thankfully, I don't audition a lot of gear or I'd be sick of those same three CD's and they're three of my favorites! :)I don't know what those are, but hopefully one contains a well recorded, hear the strings being plucked acoustic stand up bass. This is one area where a well designed dynamic driver dipole separates itself from planar or monopole/box in an acoustically small room. One of my faves for demoing is Dave Brubeck's Young Lions & Old Tigers, Telarc CD-83349.
Kerr - It took the guy who owns the Orions what seemed (to him) to be an inordinately long time to position them but now he thinks he's got them right. And he sold his Maggie 20.1's, my reference speaker. That is what really peaked my interest... this guy has been a Maggiephile for 15 years
That is a very natural progression. I forgot to ask what version does he have. Is it an original or the ++?
You are in for a treat either way, but the integration of the Thor subwoofers into the system raises the dynamic capabilities substantially.
I found myself listening without my servosubs about 95% of the time (remember, music only, I had a seperate theater system) at my condo without the feeling I was missing anything.
Since moving to a house that dropped to about 50% :-).cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
> but hopefully one contains a well recorded, hear the strings being plucked acoustic stand up bass <Two, actually. One is a 45 RPM LP of Scott LaFaro's bass with the Bill Evans Trio. The 45 RPM version is sonically the best when matched with the standard LP or various versions of the CD or SACD... the disc is "Saturday Night at the Village Vanguard". The other is Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" which isn't so well recorded (or mastered) but I'm familiar with every nuance of that disc so differences are easy to pick out. The 3rd is Beethoven's Fifth - gotta have some orchestral music in there. One LP, two CD's.
> I forgot to ask what version does he have. Is it an original or the ++? <
He's got the full monty ++ with the Thor subs. He had his own multichannel amp (a Theta, I think). I must be in for a treat as you say because I've known him for many years and I've never seen him this excited about anything. Thankfully for the bias thingy, he and I only see eye to eye (ear to ear) about half the time. It was he, you see, that showed me what the Bedini Ultra Clarifier could do. As far as I could tell, it spun CD's. It was sorta cool to be able to see the CD spinning but it wasn't $140 worth of cool. But he waxed eloquent about the sound while I sat there trying desperately to hear the difference that never appeared. So I'm not at all concerned that his excitement might tamper with my own experience. I have no doubt they're great speakers but I'm curious if they maintain the positives of the Maggies while improving on the idiosyncracies I've learned to live with. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Hi Kerr,I noticed you said: My thoughts exactly about planars. They're the best I've heard (in my price range) but they're certainly not perfect.
I know you know this but no speaker design is perfect, horns, electrocstatics, planars, ribbons, dynamics, monopole, dipole, bipole or omnis. Everyone of these designs has it's pluses and minuses. I've owned some really nice dipoles in the past and to this day my favorite was the original Carver Amazing! Four 12" woofers and a 60" ribbon. The woofers were actually more like subwoofers as they only played from 100Hz and below. These Carvers were completely dipole on both the woofers and the ribbon. Those were really amazing speakers. Their greatest fault was requiring literally 1000's of watts to really play loud. Strangely enough a 100W/ch B&K ST-140 was sufficient enough for me, 99% of the time.
I've also owned Infinity's RS 2.5. These had dipole ribbon tweeters and ribbon midrange drivers with an infinite baffle 12" woofer. Then I owned the Fostex FP-1001 which also had a dipole ribbon tweeter and ribbon midrange with a bass reflex 8" wide-range driver that ran sans crossover, directly attached to the amp! My last dipole, which I still own and use in my home theater is the Monsoon FPF-1000 which like the 2 previous designs used a a dipole ribbon tweeter and ribbon midrange drivers only this time it's with a two 6.5" drivers in a bass reflex design.
Like everything else these had their strengths and weaknesses, but overall I do prefer the dipole sound. Today I'm using the monopole Aliantes which Polly likes to critize so much, they're actually quite outstanding for their design type. As you may or may not know I'm restoring a pair of RCA LC9A speakers, but with my back problems it's a llooonnnnggggg, slow process. What I've hinted at in other parts of Audio Asylum and what I've told RBG personally is I have a DIY dipole speaker I'm planning on building that's still in the design stage at this time. One extremely important factor for me is that it be as efficient as possible!
I'm planning to use a large Heil driver either in an MTM confiquration or with a single driver below the Heil. I haven't decided which is the better approach yet. The Heil is a particularily interesting choice because it can safely be crossed over as low as 700Hz, like it was in some of the ESS designs or as it is todays in the new Oskar Heil Kitharas, so it leaves a lot of room in choicing the crossover point between what would normally be a single fullrange driver and itself. At this time the driver of choice for the midrange is the Audio Nirvana Super 8. It's an 8" single fullrange drivers. But that could change to either Fostex or Lowther depending on further research I'll be doing. Even though it can be safely crossed over at 700Hz I believe the Heil will be used essentially to add that last little sparkle and sheen to the Audio Nirvanas.
Below that will obviously be a woofer -- in this case four 12" dipole woofers like Carver used. The original Carver amazings with it's four 12" dipole woofers had the most awesome bass I have ever heard, so I'm leaning in that direction and recently acquired a source for some very nice dipole woofers like those used in the original Amazings by Carver and which Gilmore audio uses today! For me the hardest part will be designing the crossover. My plans are to run the woofers to 100-150Hz MAX! The Audio Nirvana's from either 100 or 150Hz to about 3.5Khz and the Heils from 3.5Khz and up! These points could also change as I continue with my research. I also plan (at this time) to use a shape very similar to the original Carvers as well.
Thetubeguy1954
This is all too surreal. The closest thing to live unamplified music being 6" plastic cone boxes - has now suddenly decided that this could not possibly be so?
How pathetic you are. At least admit that your fantasy is over, swallow your pride and get rid of all that crap in your living room. For the money you squandered on those overpriced computer speakers, underpowered music sweetener/eq amp and Dilbert CD player, you could have had a vastly superior audio playback system. A $300 CD player that YOU could not tell from the Dilbert in a unsighted test, a decent preamp (sure, even a tube one) and a full Orion set up would have been less money than the junk you chose to buy - and 1000X better sounding, even to someone as deluded as you.
Now Mr. Anti-science/anti-measurement is going to build his own copious eq dipole? ROTFLMAO. I can hardly wait to see this result. Measurements don't correlate to sound waves according to you, so this "design" of yours will be extremely entertaining for me to watch unfold. What happened to the RCA? How is the chronic ailment going to allow you to build a dipole but not finish the RCA?
Been reading Lynn Olson's DIYAudio thread haven't you!! LOL
Tom, you provide me with endless entertainment. Keep it coming, thanx :-).cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
POLLYinFLA: This is all too surreal. The closest thing to live unamplified music being 6" plastic cone boxes - has now suddenly decided that this could not possibly be so?TG1954: GOD Polly the depth of your ignorance seems to know no bounds. Just when I think you cannot possibly say something stupider than you previously did, you do just that by making up a new story to support your warped beliefs! I said the Mastersound was the closest thing to live unamplified music, not the Aliantes. I said the Aliantes are the best 2-way monitors I've heard for $5K and under. My intention was always to replace the Aliantes in the main system. They'll just get downgraded to being used with the Audio Analogue Puccini in the bedroom system.
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POLLYinFLA: How pathetic you are. At least admit that your fantasy is over, swallow your pride and get rid of all that crap in your living room. For the money you squandered on those overpriced computer speakers, underpowered music sweetener/eq amp and Dilbert CD player, you could have had a vastly superior audio playback system.TG1954: Pathetic? Pathetic is someone like yourself who believe the lies he tells and the stories he makes up. The Aliantes are still the best 2-way monitors I've heard in their price range. In fact I'd love to hear them vs your butchered Orions from 50Hz up, sans your dipole woofers. And swallow what pride? I've told you, you arrogant SOB, I've owned original Carver Amazings, Infinity RS2.5s, Fostex FP-1001 & Monsoon Monsoon FPF-1000. I've probably owned more dipoles and for longer periods of time than you have, so why act like you're converting me? This idea has been on the drawing board for some time now. But having lived on disability for years, I have very little extra funds to work with. It took me 4 years to save for the Mastersound. As I stated I've spoken with RBG in private email about these DIY speakers, so you can ask him because I know you won't believe me.
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POLLYinFLA: A $300 CD player that YOU could not tell from the Dilbert in a unsighted test, a decent preamp (sure, even a tube one) and a full Orion set up would have been less money than the junk you chose to buy - and 1000X better sounding, even to someone as deluded as you.TG1954: As you haven't the foggest idea what I paid for the Aliantes how do you know I squandered any money, you don't! Plus the Mastersound Reference will mop the floor with that QSC crap and even your HK Citation amp. As for my BlueNote Stibbert if you can find a $300 piece of crap CDP that sounds as good I'll buy it, but I know you won't. Polly you're good for providing a laugh everytime you post. PS: YOU'RE the deluded one, so sick in fact you don't realize you are sick and you believe all the lies you tell.
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POLLYinFLA: Now Mr. Anti-science/anti-measurement is going to build his own copious eq dipole? ROTFLMAO. I can hardly wait to see this result. Measurements don't correlate to sound waves according to you, so this "design" of yours will be extremely entertaining for me to watch unfold.TG1954: You're a complete idiot. I never said I'm anti-science or anti-measurement YOU did in order to be able to justify your assinine comments. You make up so many stories you're starting to believe your own lies. I don't know how you'll watch my design unfold as you'll never step foot in my home. I very particular with whom I hang out with and trust me it will NEVER be you.
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POLLYinFLA: What happened to the RCA? How is the chronic ailment going to allow you to build a dipole but not finish the RCA?TG1954: Obviously being disabled will cause it to take a lot longer for me than someone who doesn't have back problems like mine. The RCA will be completed as planned. It's a no lose situation I have one of only 100-300 pairs ever made, so they'll only increase in value. I also have pair of Paul Butterfield modified TAD 2001 pre-1990! They're quite desirable and used by Dr Bruce Edgar as well as Nelson Pass and some of his engineers. So I can only watch the RCA's increase in value every passing year. Besides I might prefer them after hearing them, who knows?
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POLLYinFLA Been reading Lynn Olson's DIYAudio thread haven't you!! LOL. Tom, you provide me with endless entertainment. Keep it coming, thanx :-).TG1954: I've read Lynn Olsen for years. A friend of mine makes his Ariel speakers for others. Me? I've been slowly collecting the pieces to make these proto-type speakers. I'm even checking into trademarking a name for the company that will one day produce them. It's entended to hopefully be a commercial product one day, at least that's the idea. But it will be properly designed dipole and NOT require copious amounts of EQ to sound correct, in and of itself. As I've told you I'm not impressed with the Monsoons which are in my home theater. "IF" my DIY design turns out as good as I hope, then maybe they'll be marketable, if not they'll replace the Monsoons and I'll chalk it up as a learning experience.
Just keep providing more idiotic replies Polly, I can always use another good laugh.
Thetubeguy1954
Kerr - I'll let you know how it turns out.Please do. Feel free to post at the top so it does not get lost in the shuffle down here.
Pity you don't have a nice grand piano solo in the demo selection.
You've heard of listening in another room or outside and hearing how "real" it sounds like a live instrument? Try that with the best monopole or planar, then try it with these.
I think even tubeguy might hear that difference :-).
Then there is the solo drum kit track on my Sheffield Labs test disc at "live" volume.....cheers,
AJ
The threshold for disproving something is higher than the threshold for saying it, which is a recipe for the accumulation of bullshit - Softky
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